@fenwizard “re Bon evolved out of old pre-Buddhist Tibetan animism and shamanism”… Yes and no. TWR, Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche and other Bon teachers emphasize in their books that Yungdrung Bon is comprised of the Nine ways of Bon, in which the so-called causal vehicles - to which “shamanic rituals” belong to - are only the “lower” vehicles. Even in some texts, Bon is intellectually being simplified to being “evolved shamanism”, thereby totally ignoring their own tantric and dzogchen cycles, which have nothing to do with shamanism at all.
There were findings of ancient Dzogchen texts in Zhang-Zhung language which prove that these higher teachings were present in Zhang-Zhung kinddom before the ingress of indian buddhism.
From Wikipedia:
As noted by Dmitry Ermakov, “the word Bön is used to denote many diverse religious and cultural traditions.” Bon sources acknowledge this and Bon authors like Shardza Rinpoche (1859–1935), Pelden Tsultrim (1902–1973) and Lopön Tenzin Namdak use a classification of three types of “Bon”. Modern scholars also sometimes rely on this classification, which is as follows:[11][12][13][30]
** Prehistoric Bon (Gdod ma’i bon) of Zhangzhung and Tibet. This is an ancient system of belief and ritual practice that is mostly extinct today. However, elements of it exist in various religious practices found in the Himalayas – mainly in the calling of fortune rituals (g.yang 'gug), the soul retrieval or re-call rituals (bla 'gugs) and the ransom rituals (mdos). Ermakov sees some similarities between this tradition and the Eurasian cult of the sky deer.[30]*
** Eternal Bon (Yungdrung Bon), also called old Bon (Bon Nyingma), which is traced to the Buddha Tonpa Shenrab and other sages from Zhangzhung. These religions developed from the 8th to the 11th century and are similar to Nyingma Buddhism. It includes ancient elements which are pre-Buddhist (including the fortune, bla and ransom rituals).*
** New Bon (Bon Sarma, Bonsar), a syncretic tradition which includes elements from Eternal Bon and Tibetan Buddhism, including the worship of the Buddhist figure Padmasambhava. This new movement dates from the 14th century and was mainly active in eastern Tibet.*
Thanks for sharing your knowledge on this topic which is definitely more extensive than mine. I had read that Bon contained a lot of pre-Buddhist shamanistic practices, so I assumed that the exorcism practices came from this, as it is similar to exorcisms done by animistic shamans world wide. But perhaps there were also Buddhist based exorcism practices that originated in India?
Good point about the lower vehicles. I would add that just becuase they are 'lower vehicles" doesnt take away from their potency, if these rituals and practices did not help and protect the tribes, odds are they would have died out centuries ago.
Alan Wallace mentions in his retreat video that the higher practices like Dzogchen are NOT possible for all minds, he brings up 3 cases of severe scizophrenia he helped with, and talked about how these ‘higher vehicle’ meditative practices would not have been an effective treatment.
Not sure what methods they used for treatment, but it would not shock me if multiple ‘lower vehicles’ were employed, like prayer, ritual, ‘spells’, chanting, exorcism, mantra, etc.
@KhyungMar do you know anything about the Oracles in the Bon tradition?
I learned about about this last year and am very curious what their roles are in the faith?
“The process of recognizing tulkus involves a combination of traditional and supernatural methods. When a tulku passes away, a committee of senior lamas convenes to identify the reincarnation. They may look for signs left by the departed tulku, consult oracles, rely on dreams or visions, and sometimes even observe natural phenomena like rainbows. This process combines mysticism and tradition to pinpoint the successor who will carry forward the teachings of their predecessor.”
Tulkus seem like pretty powerful beings ( ‘;entities’ ???) to me…
@fenwizard I think you are right that e.g. Yungdrung Bön integrated certain old “shamanic” rituals and adapted them. I just wanted to have pointed out that Yungdrung Bön is much more than an evolution of those very old practices; some older academic descriptions held that theory. Regarding exorcism rituals, there seem to be a few number of them, and those few ones that I know are tantric-based on non-indian, enlightened wrathful entities, which have the power to expel malevolent entities. But there also seem to be other enlightened entities integrated in Yungdrung Bön cosmology which are involved in exorcism rituals which have an equivalence in indian dharma and/or indian based buddhism, such as the Phurba deity.
Yes, absolutely. “lower” does not mean less effective.
Check out this for a great description, if interested:
[quote=“NightHawk999, post:23, topic:10366”] @KhyungMar do you know anything about the Oracles in the Bon tradition?
I learned about about this last year and am very curious what their roles are in the faith? @NightHawk999
Actually, I don’t know much about the Oracles in Bön.
Yes very interested and I really appreciate you posting this.
1-4 & 9, all deeply resonate with me
" The Nine Ways of Bön according to the Southern Treasures:
The Way of the Shen of Prediction: This Way includes divination, astrology, various rituals, and medical diagnosis.
2. The Way of the Shen of the Phenomenal World: This Way includes rituals dealing with communication with external forces such as rituals of protection, invocation, ransom of the soul and life-force, and of repelling negative or harmful energies.
3. The Way of the Shen of Manifestation: This Way includes venerating a deity or master and then applying mantra and mudras in order to accomplish a goal such as requesting assistance from natural energies.
4. The Way of the Shen of Existence: This Way is primarily focused upon rituals for the dead and methods to promote longevity for the living.
5. The Way of the Virtuous Lay Practitioners: This Way specifies the proper conduct of lay person taking vows.
6. The Way of the Fully Ordained: This Way specifies the proper conduct for those who are fully ordained practitioners.
7. The Way of the White AH: This Way is primarily focused upon tantric practice using visualization.
8. The Way of the Primordial Shen: This Way is primarily focused upon higher tantric practice.
9. The Unsurpassed Way: This Way is primarily focused upon the practice of Dzogchen, or The Great Perfection. This Way does not rely upon antidotes of any kind, ritual or practice with a meditational deity. It is concerned with the realization of the true nature of one’s own mind."
Thank you for the kind words, but very honestly, I only read a little bit on some subjects and ask some questions to Lamas when I have the chance. I have no academic background on Bon.
There are very good scholars and knowledgable translators out there such as Dmitry Ermakov, Raven Cypress Wood, John Myrdhin Reynolds and others. For anyone more interested in Bon, I recommend to check out their works out on the internet.
Coming back from my brother’s transition at the hospital my wife took out some incense and candles and started to do prayers. I sort of ignored her and went up the stairs, but at the top was violently pushed down, hit my head on the floor, and had a slight concussion. She told me that an entity had come home with us from the morgue and that she was getting rid of it when I ignored her and started upstairs. She proceeded to drive the entity out as I was still lying dazed on the floor.
In various Asian religious traditions, the Nagas (Sanskrit: नाग, romanized: Nāga)[1] are a divine, or semi-divine, race of half-human, half-serpent beings that reside in the netherworld (Patala), and can occasionally take human or part-human form, or are so depicted in art. Furthermore, Nagas are also known as dragons and water spirits. A female naga is called a Nagi , or a Nagini . Their descendents are known as Nagavanshi. According to legend, they are the children of the sage Kashyapa and Kadru. Rituals devoted to these supernatural beings have been taking place throughout South Asia for at least 2,000 years.[2] They are principally depicted in three forms: as entirely human with snakes on the heads and necks, as common serpents, or as half-human, half-snake beings in Hinduism and Buddhism."
" The Yakshas (Sanskrit: यक्ष, IAST: Yakṣa, Pali: Yakkha) are a broad class of nature spirits, usually benevolent, but sometimes mischievous or capricious, connected with water, fertility, trees, the forest, treasure and wilderness.[4][5] They appear in Hindu, Jain and Buddhist texts, as well as ancient and medieval era temples of South Asia and Southeast Asia as guardian deities.[5][6] The feminine form of the word is IAST: Yakṣī[7] or Yakshini (Sanskrit: यक्षिणी, IAST: Yakṣiṇī; Pali: Yakkhini).[8]
In Hindu, Jain and Buddhist texts, the yakṣas have a dual personality. On the one hand, a yakṣa may be an inoffensive nature-fairy, associated with woods and mountains; but there is also a darker version of the yakṣa, which is a kind of (bhuta) that haunts the wilderness and waylays and devours travellers, similar to the rakṣasas."
" A gandharva (Sanskrit: गन्धर्व, lit. ‘musician’) is a member of a class of celestial beings in Indian religions, such as Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism, whose males are divine performers such as musicians and singers, and the females are divine dancers. In Hinduism, they are regarded to be the celestial demigods who serve as the musicians of the devas.[1]
It is also a term for skilled singers in Indian classical music. In Buddhism, this term also refers to a being in the intermediate state (between death and rebirth)."
" While all the gods of the Kāmadhātu are subject to passions to some degree, the asuras above all are addicted to them, especially wrath, pride, envy, insincerity, falseness, boasting, and bellicosity.
Always desiring to be superior to others, having no patience for inferiors and belittling strangers; like a hawk, flying high above and looking down on others, and yet outwardly displaying justice, worship, wisdom, and faith — this is raising up the lowest order of good and walking the way of the Asuras.
The asuras are said to experience a much more pleasurable life than humans, but they are plagued by envy for the devas, whom they can see just as animals perceive humans.[citation needed] The asuras of some inferior realms however, are malevolent (such as the corruptor Mara) and can be referred to as demons.[citation needed] They are alternatively called rakshasas.
They are sometimes referred to as pūrvadeva (Pāli: pubbadeva), meaning “ancient gods.”[5]"
Garuda is described as the king of the birds and a kite-like figure.[7][8] He is shown either in a zoomorphic form (a giant bird with partially open wings) or an anthropomorphic form (a man with wings and some ornithic features). Garuda is generally portrayed as a protector with the power to swiftly travel anywhere, ever vigilant and an enemy of every serpent.[1][8][9] He is also known as Tarkshya and Vainateya.
" A kinnara (Sanskrit: Kiṃnara) is a creature from Hindu and Buddhist mythology.[1] They are described as part human and part bird, and have a strong association with music and love. Believed to come from the Himalayas, they often watch over the well-being of humans in times of trouble or danger. An ancient Indian string instrument is known as the Kinnari vina.
Their character is also clarified in the Adi Parva of the Mahabharata, where they say:
We are everlasting lover and beloved. We never separate. We are eternally husband and wife; never do we become mother and father. No offspring is seen in our lap. We are lover and beloved ever-embracing. In between us we do not permit any third creature demanding affection. Our life is a life of perpetual pleasures.[2]
They are featured in a number of Buddhist texts, including the Jataka tales and Lotus Sutra. In Southeast Asian Buddhist mythology, kinnaris, the female counterpart of kinnaras, are depicted as half-bird, half-woman creatures. One of the many creatures that inhabit the mythical Himavanta, kinnaris have the head, torso, and arms of a woman and the wings, tail and feet of a swan. They are renowned for their dance, song and poetry, and are a traditional symbol of feminine beauty, grace and accomplishment."
" The Mahoraga (Sanskrit: महोरग), also pronounced as Maha-Uraga (“Greater Reptilians”) are a race of deities in Buddhism, and Jainism. They are the exalted ones among the Uragas, a race of primordial reptilian beings who are cousins to the nāga. Like the nāga, they are often depicted as anthropomorphic beings with reptilian bodies from the waist down. However, their appearance can differ depending on artistic tradition, sometimes having serpent skin with humanoid bodies.[1]
An illustration from an 1866 Japanese book. Mahoraga, who is an incarnation of Bodhisattva Kannon in this scene, gives a sermon to folks.
The Mahoraga are one of the eight classes of deities (aṣṭasenā) that are said to protect the Dharma. They are described as huge subterranean serpents who lie on their sides and rotate the earth, which occasionally causes earthquakes.[2]
Like the kinnara, the Mahoraga are also associated with music. They are understood as being associated with large serpents such as pythons, while the nāgas are more closely related to the cobra.[3]
According to the Śariputraparipṛcchā Sūtra (T. 1465), one is reborn as a mahoraga as a result of practicing generosity and upholding the Dharma, while being inclined toward anger."
Eight Legions
Battling Ghosts & Demons - Exorcist Monk Explains
@_Barry check this vid out, love the part about protectors on his shoulders at the 5min mark, and how monks walk around with an entourage of entities…
@_Barry Wow! That’s intense. In my own shamanic training and work, I learned that earthbound spirits (soul’s who don’t cross over) sometimes have non-human dark force entities (aka “demons”) attached to them. These are the “ghosts” that act out in negative ways and can do that kind of damage. Great that your wife has ways of dealing with this in her culture!
Andrew has said that people/beings with really heavy Karma, can stick around well past the 49 day mark.
I wonder if this (negative) karmic energy is partially responsible for attracting entities (or demons) into the Mind space of individuals and the departed?
My brother had just died. I don’t think one leaves the body that quickly and my wife was sure it was a hanger-on entity from the hospital, plenty of whom must be in and around there.
