I hope this message finds you all well. I would like to open a discussion on a topic that has been on my mind regarding the concepts of unattached burdens, possession by entities or other beings, and the nature of contact with enlightened beings.
For those who may not be familiar, Internal Family Systems (IFS) is a model of the mind that views the mind as made up of distinct parts, each with its own perspective and role. Recently, there has been a discussion among some practitioners of IFS about the idea of parts of the self that are not one’s own, which may need to be released. This raises an interesting question: if one seeks complete liberation, is this something that should be a focus of our spiritual practice, or is it better to ignore these concepts altogether? Additionally, could this focus lead down the wrong path and foster further identification with phenomena, albeit in a more subtle form related to non-physical entities?
What do you think about the idea of unattached burdens or the possession of entities? If you can recommend any people or books that cover this topic, it would be much appreciated.
I look forward to hearing your insights and perspectives on this topic.
Beloved @Lean thank you for opening this topic.
For me these topics should be addressed from experience and deeply feeling our energy and other energies.
I have found a delightful and powerful meditation that I think you might enjoy and, perhaps experience the answers you are looking for.
From my experience, Carlos Castaneda is a great author on this topic. I would suggest particularly his book “The Active Side of Infinity”, pages 215-234 (Mud Shadows) of the HarperCollinsPublishers, 1999 Edition.
Also shamanic tradition provides pretty good practices to feel and let go of these energies. From my experience, they are all over the world. Usually it’s best when it’s someone recommending you someone they already know.
Infinite Blessings and Love
PS: just remembered a post from May here at NCC that you might enjoy:
many different discussion points packed in your post…
Since IFS is a psychotherapeutical system, are you looking for perspectives in the frame of that pyschotherapeutical system?
Or are you looking for perspectives out of buddhism or other traditions?
Interesting could also be a discussion from a theoretical non-dualistic vantage point.
It might be useful to break down the different points into mangeable chunks?
And which premises are assumed, e.g. :
are we assuming that entities (non-physical) are real independant entities, or, pyschological aspects of ourselves?
what is the definition of “unattached burdens”?
when you asked in your post about “liberation”, are you talking of buddhist definition of liberation or something else (if yes, please define)?
when talking about possession (of?) or by entities, do you mean phenomena that stay for a longer time with a subject and which could be exorcised?
Too many layers, maybe it really does make sense to break it down a bit?
I would like to share something from my personal experience, though I’m not sure if it’s exactly what you’re looking for. While I was in the hospital, I met someone who had a severe case of schizophrenia. He told me things about myself that no one should have known. I didn’t know him, and he said it was the voices in his head telling him to share these things with me.
I’ve had multiple other experiences that have convinced me that entities exist beyond our perception. I don’t know their capacity or how much they can influence the mind, but they can certainly communicate through the least likely people.
On this topic, I’d like to mention something I’ve never really shared before, but your post reminded me of it. I believe schizophrenia is largely misunderstood by society. Many of these individuals may have the natural ability to communicate with entities beyond our reality. I think that because of the experiences they have and how society interacts with them, many are plunged into a state of fear. Being in such a state may allow lower-energy entities to gain what is called the “hitchhiker effect.”
I also became very close with someone in the same hospital who was centered in love, and he was fortunate enough—although I’m not sure he fully understood his gifts—to see aliens walking around like normal people. He had the gift of seeing overlapping dimensions in my opinion, and he said to me he often told them to leave him alone because they freaked him out. From what I gathered, I have a feeling it was to guide, not harm, and in time, I hope he will understand that.
In the same hospital, there was a woman who had gone through something extreme (she nearly killed her sister by a semi-intentional accident) and had no history of hearing voices. But when she was interacted with me, she was able to have my thoughts projected into her mind. This happened twice while I was there, and she said that after this experience, during the night, there was a crystal-clear voice entering her mind that she was concerned about. This is another direct, first hand form of evidence for me that foreign thoughts can enter others minds. From this experience I know that humans have the potentional to be naturally telepathic.
I share all these things to provide you with evidence I’ve experienced firsthand. I believe entities exist beyond our perception but I do not know to what extent they can operate within the mind. It might be an area that needs further research.
Also, wanted to note the first line of your post “I hope this message finds you all well” is a very common phrase AI uses when writing.
Great topic for a thread, I think these are some topics that have a great deal of depth.
I cant say much about the first 2, but I think the Dharma and many spiritual traditions have a great deal to say about Angels, enlightened beings, very pure souls or spirits, etc.
No doubt in my mind these entities are real. Kind of spooky to think about Hungry Ghosts this time of year…
Dear @BlessingsDeers,
Thank you for sharing your insights! I completely agree that personal experience are essential when exploring these topics. I appreciate your recommendation of Carlos Castaneda’s “The Active Side of Infinity”—I’ll definitely check out those pages you mentioned.
It’s fascinating how shamanic traditions offer such rich practices for engaging with and releasing energies. I’m also interested in perspectives from different contemplative and spiritual paths, as I understand that some traditions suggest not to focus too much on these matters. I’d love to hear more about your experiences and any insights you might have on this!
You raise some excellent points, and I appreciate the suggestion to break down the discussion into more manageable chunks. I’m interested in exploring perspectives from various frameworks, including IFS, Buddhism, and non-dualistic viewpoints.
Regarding your questions, I think it’s important to clarify our assumptions.
For instance, I’m interested in whether non-physical entities should be viewed as independent beings or as psychological aspects of ourselves. As far as I know this view differs across spiritual/contemplative paths.
This question first came to my mind, because Robert Falconer, who is an IFS-therapist published a book on so-called unattached burdens. Usually, in IFS parts are regarded as inherently good and should not be removed from one’s inner system, but rather transformed through compassion and other beneficial qualities and of course through detachment. However, Robert Falconer claims that some parts might carry unattached burdens and these could be entities and deceased souls, which attach to a person or parts and influence them. It is even said that such entities could include beings from other realms and planets.
Here is a description of Falconer’s view on unattached burdens: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3C9yeS7Cgw
Aspect of liberation: I am referring to the Buddhist idea of liberation, but also to other systems e.g. Vedanta. According to my limited understanding, I thought that engagement with such topics should be avoided, because one could potentially identify with these matters too much or even get stuck with these matters and miss the potential for liberation and bondage.
Regarding Possession, yes I referred to actual possession of entities (including earth-bound souls or even hostile forces). In various cultures there are practices for expelling so-called unwanted entities, but I wonder whether these are rituals or actual phenomena. In the New Age field, of course, there are lots of people who claim all sorts of things, but this could be misleading and dangerous.
On a related note, I recall a study from a few years ago that explored meditation and near-death experiences, where participants, particularly Buddhist practitioners, reported encounters with other realms. Interestingly, they noted that while these experiences felt profound, the phenomena themselves lacked inherent existence. This adds another layer to our discussion about the nature of reality and perception.
Overall, I’m asking these questions because I want to differentiate between whether one should look into these phenomena or whether it is misleading or even a waste of time.
I hope these points are understandable and I look forward to a stimulating discussion and support in learning from each other on these topics.
Thank you for sharing your very interesting experiences and thank you also for pointing out the remark regarding AI. Maybe I should mention that I am not a native English speaker and therefore I have to use some translation tools to hopefully make myself understandable to you.
Based on your experience, I remember a statement I heard years ago. It was said that mentally ill people, especially those with schizophrenia, often have better access to a spiritual world and that “healthy people” tend not to be normal. This film by the psychiatrist and Buddhist practitioner “Someone besides you” may also fit in with this (https://www.someonebesideyou.com/de/index_d.html). However, I also think that you have to be very careful with these statements, because if people are suffering, then you also have to help them (e.g. in the case of schizophrenia). In academia there are some ideas about spectrums of mental illnesses. This spectrum ranges from very rigid system (e.g. also nervous system) to a very open system and different types of illnesses can linked to the different ends of the spectrum. Schizophrenia would be long the very open end of the spectrum.
Robert Falconer often refers to the work by the anthropologist Tanya Luhrmann, who proposes the idea that the mind is actually porous. Here is a short video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhC9nEboH9c
The description of by Luhrmann might actually match your experiences a bit.
Some of your descriptions also remind me of the reports of JĂĽrgen Ziewe, who had out-of-body experiences and also encounters with other beings through meditation. However, I wonder whether such experiences can also be very subjectively clouded. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emekyVbza0U
I look forward to the further exchange on these topics.
Beloved @Lean thank you for your words and curiosity! Just yesterday @Kalabasis shared an interesting file here at NCC:
this bonfire of love document has a piece that guides us to use vortex energy to cleanse our energetic field.
I work with the hidden bodies / energetic body and I have had many times these vortexes cleaning up my whole aura, sometimes just locating in specific areas of the energetic body - it’s a very simple way of working with energy to clean everything from our magnetic field.
found this meditation on youtube that is from a person I have learned from and whom I trust to give this kind of guidance:
I myself have been on a journey of learning about entities for many years. As a child of conservative Evangelical Christians I was taught that demons were real. In the New Testament there were stories of Jesus casting out demons and I also remember reading books about Christian missionaries encountering demon possession and doing exorcisms. These stories scared the hell out of me! As I got into my 20’s and got into Jungian psychology and dreams, I began to look at demons as shadow aspects of the psyche or “un-integrated complex’s”. The so-called “demons” were shadow aspects of the psyche. But at the same time, it was a bit complicated because Jung also seemed to believe in ghosts. There was the famous event with Freud in which there was a strange knocking coming from the bookshelves that spooked Freud, and Jung seemed to imply, that, yeah or course there are spirits knocking about. Eventually I began to practice as a therapist myself. I trained in a neo-Jungian model called “Process Work” that included parts dialog work. This thread started with mention of the parts used in Internal Family Systems. I haven’t been trained in IFS but I have a little familiarity with it and I see some similarities to the parts work done in Process Work. However, in the 90’s I had a strange experience with a woman who had Dissociative Identity Disorder (commonly called “multiple personality”). Due to extreme childhood trauma, the kinds of inner parts that we all have, had become very dissociated from one another, to the point where they take on very independent identities, and different parts would take over at different times and do very different kinds of things. We all do this to a lesser extent, but in DID this is very extreme - to the point that one part of her would go out and pick up a guy and another part of her didn’t know she did it. I worked with her for several months before I even knew she was a multiple, but I would see these extreme switches in personality, and then another part of her didn’t remember what she had just said or did. So I began to work with her parts to help her parts get to know one another and dialog with one another and become more conscious and less dissociated. But there was one very unusual part that came up called “Otter” and at first I thought that she was another abused child part. But as I dialogued with Otter and tried to work with her on integration she told me that she couldn’t be integrated because she came “from another soul family.” As we explored her story I was amazed to be told that she was a child who had gone swimming with her family at the Oregon coast and had drowned. At the time of the drowning she had been imagining that she was a swimming otter, hence she took on that name and identity. But for some reason she had not crossed over into the next world but had attached herself to my client who as a child was visiting the beach. I then helped her cross into the spirit world and after that never heard from her again.
Then around 2008 I began to look around for more effective therapies to treat trauma as I had a growing awareness that trauma underlies most of the problems that people come to therapy for. The Jungian dream work and the process-oriented parts work is great (and I still incorporate those things), but I was looking for something else that could more quickly heal trauma. I then discovered “energy psychology” that uses acupressure points and chakras and related energetic methods to heal trauma. This seemed to be much more fast and effective than other trauma therapy methods that I was familiar with. My main teacher of energy psychology was a guy named Howard Brockman who had integrated a lot of different energy psychology methods into one system. But he also had been trained in “Core Shamanism” which was anthropologist Michael Harner’s distillation of shamanic practices distilled from many shamanic cultures from around the world. This gets into things like removing curses, helping attached “earthbound spirits” (i.e. ghosts) cross into the light and even removing demons. I had now come full circle and once again saw demons as real entities, and not just shadow parts of the psyche that need integration. Howard had us do shamanic journeys into the upper and lower spirit worlds (in this context lower doesn’t mean lesser or evil, these are just different dimensions one can travel in) in order to develop relationships with various helping spirits. These can be animal helpers or spiritual guides or helpers including Boddhisattvas (one of my main helpers in Tara). It’s now not unusual for me to work with earthbound spirit attachments and to help them cross over. Or to remove non-human demonic entities. Tibetan Buddhism has also integrated pre-Buddhist Tibetan shamanism and I think that removing ghosts and demons is a common thing that Tibetan Buddhist shamans practice. I remember reading once about a Tibetan master that removed a demon from someone, but unlike the Christian missionaries, didn’t cast it into hell, but instead he put it in a box and told him he had to stay in there and meditate on his actions!
Anyway, that is a little of the journey I have been on with all of this. And my journey continues.
@mbready. Yes to your thoughts about entity possession with many of the folks in mental hospitals. There is an interesting book about this called “The Presence of Other Worlds” by Wilson Van Dusen. He was a psychologist who worked in mental hospitals in California in the 70’s but he had spiritual gifts. He could see the entities attached to his patients. Most of the entities were lower entities that were tormenting them, but some also had higher entities or guides but just didn’t know how to handle this or how to integrate this. Van Dusen was a Swedenborgian. (Swedenborg was an 18th Century Christan mystic who had out of body experiences and traveled to higher realms).
Also check out the movie “Crazywise.” The premise of this film is that “mental illness” is often a calling to shamanism. In traditional cultures those with this calling are recognized from early childhood and trained, but in our culture such individuals are marginalized and don’t receive this training, so often don’t know how to handle it:
Wow, it seems like this thread has gotten very quiet since my posts! I hope it’s not like "ssshhh! There’s a therapist in the house and he sounds like he thinks he knows a lot about this so we better all shut up! "
I really don’t pretend to be the final word on all of this but since I do have some experience with this, I wanted to add my 2 cents. I also want to say that it’s less than 5% of my clients that have these kinds of entity attachments, so most of the time, inner parts are inner parts that need healing and integration.
Also, an interesting book on this topic is called "Healing Lost Souls: Releasing Unwanted Spirits from your Energy Body by hypnotherapist William Baldwin. He also has a book called “Spirit Releasement Therapy.” He uses a hypnotherapy approach in which he dialogs with these spirits and convinces them to leave. It’s an interesting read but he does very long hypnotherapy sessions to do this, so I find his approach quite time consuming (although I’ve had a bit of experience trying it). I find the shamanic methods to be faster. I would recommend reading Michael Harner’s “the Way of the Shaman”. If you really think that you or someone you know needs help with a negative entity, you can find certified Core Shamanic practitioner’s here: https://www.shamanism.org/services/certified-shamanic-counselors/
But that being said, much of the time “negative entities” are just wounded parts of the psyche that have gotten pushed into the shadow, so they are just needing love and attention. So discernment on this is needed.
No my friend, don’t think such delusions, your pressense is deeply valued.
I think of these forums as being like Turya, a state that subsumes time, so whether its a few weeks or months, I always enjoy the insights, regardless of how late to the party they are
Re 1: whether non-physical entities should be viewed as independent beings or as psychological aspects of ourselves:
In my view, how they are viewed depends on what perspective ressonates strongest with the viewer; that will probably determine which one the viewer will end up adopting:
For example, from spiritual dualistic perspectives, for example of many spiritual traditions, there often is indeed the belief in the objective independent reality of non-physcial entities.
Furthermore to the culturally shared belief of their existence as such, the subjective experiences of encountering non-physcial entities are commonly reported and accepted.
From non-spiritual dualistic perspectives - such as most western pyschological perspectives - non-physcial entities are viewed as aspects of subjective mind only, i.e. not as independent entities, which seems to be the natural inference, since most western psychologies are nevertheless still routed in a world of materialism, where phenomena of the mind are believed to be correlates of physcial, neurological mechanisms.
From some spiritual non-dualistic perspectives, non-physcial entities are viewed as not being independent beings, but… only so, because all phenomena (including the self) are viewed as non-dualistic, meaning, that there is no independent entitiy anywhere, in anything, hence, also not in the phenomena of so-called “non-physcial entities”. This is not to say though that those phenomena do not exist, that would be a form of nihilism.
This perspective can in my opinion only be understood in a non-conceptual state of mind.
Now, on the discussion point of whether to work with those phenomena (non-physcial entities), or not:
My personal opinion is that … it depends. :
There is firstly the possibility that a subject is mentally ill, unstable and is hallucinating. If that could be the case, one should not engage in self-therapeutic interaction with whatever it is.
In case of a stable mind, there could be singular random chance encounters with different non-physcial entities for those who are senstive to such perception. Then, I guess it depends on the atmosphere of the interaction… is the interaction friendly- then why not watch what arises?
If non-physical entities appear infrequently and are non-disturbing, the question could be if there might be a benefit for oneself and the non-physical being in the interaction. In such a case, provided one is open, grounded and stable and sees a spiritual benefit in the interaction and if one knows how, one could engage with benevolent purpose, such as whishing to harmonize a relationship.
In case that non-phsycial entities seem to be attached to the subject - and we are not talking about psychological phenomena such as chronic anger or similar but “tangible” paranormal phenomena - then, in my opinion - depending on the severity of the issue - one should seek help, such as a tibetan Lama, a trustable Shaman or similar.
Re 2.
For example, in my understanding of buddhist/bön view, interactions with non-physcial beings are usually more of a hindrance on the path to liberation. Liberation is attained through meditation. The meditator is learning to either transform negative habits, karmic traces or to let them self-liberate.
But, imo, there is a difference in working with one’s own karmic traces, negative habits, states of mind etc and having a non-physical entitiy attached to oneself. If a strong practioner has the means, the practicioner can employ several shamanic techniques (or let them be performed), such as different healing, appeasement, compensation or even exorcism rituals.
A dzogchen practicioner could employ techniques such as Chod or rest in the nature of mind in the presence of the non-physcial being.
To sum up, in that context, one’s own liberation from Samsara has nothing to do with interactions with non-physical beings; they could rather disturb ones practice.
In buddhist view, if a non-physical being would be appearing to us humans, chances are that it is not enlightened and is itself still caught in samsara. A multitude of non-physical being classes are known in buddhist/bön canons. These beings all still have their afflictions, like us. So, it is prudent to keep that in mind in case of any interaction.
Bön and some buddhist traditions have specific effective methods of dealing with non-physical entities. All methods known to me are based on compassion for both the non-physical entity and the subject.
These rituals are either based on karmic compensation/offering (“ransom-ritual”) for (non-intentional or intentional) wrong- doings of the subject being “haunted”, or harmonizing the environment/relationship between the subject and the entity or by performing exorcism rituals or healing rituals or non-dualistic practices, such as Chod.
That the phenomena lacked inherent existence seems to be a paradox, but from buddhist/bön view this is coherent: In non-dual meditation, all phenomena lack inherent existence.
In near-death experience, the subject has at least a chance to experience non-duality and thereby could have such experiences.
If you associate with buddhist practice, a Lama would most probably ask you what kind of phenomena are being experienced.
If severe and disturbing, then they would most surely be considered as hindrances to practice and they would advise one or more of the above rituals.
Yes, well we must remember that the Bon tradition evolved directly out of the old pre-Buddhist Tibetan animism and shamanism. Every shamanic tradition around the world, to my knowledge, has some version of exorcism and dealing with evil spirits. When Buddhism came into Tibet it incorporated the pre-Buddhist shamanic traditions. Very different than Christianity coming into Europe and trying to get rid of the native European shamanism (aka “witchcraft.”).
Not at all, I intended to reply to the post, but my research didn’t yield results I thought were worth sharing. I was searching for anyone besides Wilson who had the gift of seeing attached entities but couldn’t find experiences similar to what he experienced and what I have witnessed in the hospital through others. I believe Wilson achieved a certain level of mastery over this gift by using this “disease” and not letting it use him (from the little I read about him, I believe he had the same “disease” as some of his patients).
The book you recommended is next on my list to listen to because, from what I’ve found, Wilson was and still is ahead of his time. I think this kind of therapy is crucial to healing on a mass scale. I believe some people are stuck with negative entities surrounding them, but I believe it is largely a product of their surroundings brought on mostly by misunderstanding.
This was the only person I could find even remotely comparable to Wilson:
Barbara Brennan provides detailed visual accounts of entities as dark spots, clouds, cords, and shapes within the aura, claiming to see these phenomena clairvoyantly.
I plan to listen to the book you recommended soon. Thank you for the suggestion and insight!
Yes, I’m familiar with Brennan’s work. I have some friend’s who studied energy healing with her. Her books have some of the best illustrations of the human energy field! Also great that you’re looking into Wilson Van Dusen’s work!
Just yesterday 
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