Percentage of Heavy Drinking Days Following Psilocybin-Assisted Psychotherapy vs Placebo in the Treatment of Adult Patients With Alcohol Use Disorder A Randomized Clinical Trial

61

Just wanted to add a neutral perspective from ChatGPT4 on this discussion. It is out of my realm of expertise so I don’t think I can contribute much more to the discussion.

(fen)
Person 1 is partially correct when stating that psilocybin has a low level of toxicity and there have been no documented lethal overdoses. According to the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA), psilocybin is not addictive and does not lead to compulsive use. However, psychological distress during a bad trip can lead to dangerous behaviors and situations.

(Night)
Person 2 is also partially correct in asserting that negative consequences can occur from misusing or overusing psilocybin. It’s known that overdosing can cause severe mental consequences such as paranoia and psychosis. Also, combining psilocybin with other substances or using in unsafe environments can be life-threatening. However, the claim Person 2 makes about psilocybin increasing body temperature and melting brain matter is not scientifically supported.

Both people are making relevant points, however, they both have some misinformation. As with any substance, misuse can lead to adverse effects. Responsible use, understanding dosages, and being in a safe environment are crucial. Peer-reviewed scientific research should always be consulted for accurate information.

I think this topic is worth discussing more because as stated there is not much available on this topic.

2 Likes
62

Perhaps Bill Gates preprogrammed ChatGPT to remain completely nuetral on the topic of mushrooms, because he knows legalization would mean he could spread spores like wildfire on his millions of acres of cornfields, and have the corn and mushrooms grow side by side? :upside_down_face:

I agree.

And until these therapies are approved throughout the entire US, I think we can all agree that having an Emergency plan in place is very important when taking these substances or any others. ( Case of water bottles, cooler filled with ice, first aid kit, directions to the nearest hospital, and a SOBER trip sitter, etc, etc, etc,).

I dont reccomend anyone take these substances without the guidance and help of a trained professional. But I understand that they are buzz words in todays culture, and if you cant stop the kids from using or abusing them, at least educate them on the worst case senarios, and have them prepared for when/if shit hits the fan.

1 Like
63

Based on the statistics you supplied, if psilocybin overdose occurs it is extremely rare. But then if you google these deaths you find things like this:

This person took mushrooms along with alcohol, opioids and benzodiazepines. The combination of alcohol, opioids and benzos is a deadly one for many, but because he mixed in some mushrooms with it, then the shrooms get implicated.
But don’t get me wrong, psychedelics should definitely be treated with respect. One reason I stayed away from them until I was 38 is that I saw some bad things happen when I was young. When I was 13 I was walking home from school in Seattle and I saw a hippie looking guy (it was the late 60’s) being tackled by the police and ambulance workers because he was running through the street naked screaming. I assumed that he was on a bad acid trip. (Perhaps it was a mental health crisis but because he looked hippie I assumed it was a bad acid trip, and it probably was). Then when I was in High School in L.A. in the early 70’s, a fellow student tripping on acid jumped off the second story of the school building and died. This scared me straight for many years and that was a good thing. Instead of doing drugs I got into dreamwork, Jungian Psychology, Buddhist Meditation practice and Tai Chi. Then in my late 30’s I began dreaming that people were giving me psychedelics, so I told the Universe that if psychedelics are to be part of my spiritual path then guide me to them. I was then guided to people who were doing them in a conscious, spiritual and ceremonial way. At that point in my psycho-spiritual development I was practiced enough at observing my own mind to make use of them. That’s why earlier in this whole discussion I said that they should not be used as party drugs… They are powerful spiritual medicines and should be respected as such. And our number 1 culturally respected party drug, alcohol (which is a very toxic consciousness lowering drug) is the number one killer in terms of drugs. And this whole thread started with a research study on the use of psilocybin to treat alcohol addiction, so we’ve come full circle. It all comes down to intention. Are you using a substance for healing, wisdom or guidance? Or are you using it to try to escape difficult feelings? If you are doing the latter, then this can lead to problematic abuse or addiction.

2 Likes
64

Yes, almost like its either insanely rare, or people have not been collecting data. Based off those stats, you a more likely to be hit by a bolt of lightning, or have a shark attack you, than you are of dying from a psilocybin overdose.

My gut tells me that the statistics are severely under reported, based off of my experience with the potency of even low doses of this drug. It packs a serious punch, especially for Newbs! I took a small sliver of a cap my first time, and it was like smoking a joint.

You bring up an EXCELLENT point about alcohol and other drugs being third variables to the overdoses. This is why I harp on the dangers of the drug so much, because I believe when people think there is no danger of overdose, they are much more likely to not only abuse the drug, but also combine it with other drugs, which is asking for a death sentence.

The flip side the faulty statistics arguement, would be in instances of Alcohol + psilocybin overdose, which drug do you think the family would want listed on the death certificate? The legal one, or the illegal one? I think 10 times out of 10 they would choose Alcohol.

Same thing with Cardiac Arrest, if the family knew the kid or family member was partying hard with the drug, and they dont want that info to hit the community at large, they will wave the Toxicology report, and ask it be written off as a heart attack.

And a few decades ago, I doubt testing for this drug was required for an autopsy report, it may not be tested for even today. IDK.

So the dangers are being swept under the rug when the data is not accounted for accurately.

1 Like
65

I agree with ChatGPT’s assessment. The age of the AI referee is upon us, for better or worse! As long as we don’t start having AI robot judges in court LOL.

2 Likes
66

I agree with you. Although no need for the ice. There is no over-heating on mushrooms like there is on MDMA. In fact I went through a phase where I was shivering cold, even when indoors with layers on. Also the same thing happened for a while with ayahuasca. Then that phase went away after a while. Strange. I heard about a mushroom ceremony where one guy got so cold with shivering that they put him in a sauna! But totally agree with having sitters and precautions. Never had to take anyone to the ER but I guess it’s a possibility.

2 Likes
67

I waited till my 30s as well, I think it was the fear society had taught me about the dangers, and I stayed away.

Its my understanding that in the 60s it was quite common for people to run down the street naked, as was playing tag with police officers (JK) :upside_down_face:

Yes, you and I are definitely in agreement on this.

And because the Alcohol lobby groups are so powerful in influencing American behavior, These therapies that could save may thousands of lives may never see the light of day in some states.

2 Likes
68

I disagree 100%.

I have experienced the increased heat first hand, as well as saw it with the guy who overdosed (nearly overdosed). He was drenched in sweat, and very hot to the touch.

Time of day is a factor with this I think. If you are taking it when the sun is out and its warm or hot, I think your risk factors for over heating skyrocket.

I think different bodies react differently. And if you are taking it at night, when the temps are dropping, shivers seem very likely. It may also be because of the initial increase in body temp, and then as the drug wanes, and body temp drops, coupled with the falling external temps, creates a very cold feeling.

MDMA and molly will definitely melt brain matter.

1 Like
69

OK I stand corrected. I just googled it and found references to increased temperature. I’ve taken it in over 90 degree F desert environments and never noticed overheating as an issue (although in outdoor wilderness environments I generally keep the dosage lower). When you talk about a guy “nearly overdosing” I would be curious to know how much he took? By “nearly overdosed” you thought he was close to death? How did you know he was that close to death? I’ve been with a lot of tripping folks including at higher doses and never encountered such a thing. (In ayahuasca ceremonies, however, I have seen folks that appear to be “gone”, i.e. they are no longer conscious and present,i.e. “ego death.” But their hearts are still beating and they are breathing. They are in no danger of dying.) It may be that on higher very high doses of psilocybin something similar could happen. MDMA, on the other hand does make you feel hot and sweaty and you can overdose if you aren’t careful about dosing. The belief that it causes brain damage (at normal doses) is false however. There was some research years ago done by a guy named Ricourte (funded by National Institute on Drug Abuse) that purported to prove that MDMA caused brain damage in mice. It was later discovered that he was using Meth, not MDMA! MDMA is likely to be the first psychedelic approved by the FDA to treat PTSD, possibly next year. It can be a wonderful healing medicine if used correctly and the combination of Psilocybin and MDMA is a beautiful one. I’ve been in several ceremonies where a combination of these 2 medicines were used. But yeah, you’ve got to stay cool on MDMA and stay hydrated.

2 Likes
70

At least 5 grams, possibly higher, due to the fact that dosage is so hard to get 100% correct, unless you are using genetically cloned/identical strains of the fungus.

I appreciate you saying this. I think everyones bodys and ‘elemental make up’ are different, some running hot blooded, and some being much cooler.

The fact that it manipulates body temperture is one of the main reasons why I feel this drug is so dangerous for young people and those who have never dipped their toes.

Alergic reactions, and psychotic events/breakdowns are also very real outcomes that can have devastating consequences.

I did not know your wife taught astronomy, SO COOL!

I would love to know her favortie things to view in the night sky, as well as the best astronomy book she has come across?

I have been meaning to ask you if stabilizers were used to help with any of your trips. MDMA sounds like it would be perfect to help combat some of the negative side effects of higher dosages of psilocybin. Have heard citrus drinks like OJ or grapefruit juice help stabilize MDMA.

What are your thoughts on smoking a joint in combination with psilocybin? Do you think weed helps stabilize the trip and negative side effects (nausia, stmoach pain), or will it make things crazier?

Do you reccomend eating anything to help alleviate stomach pain after the dosage has been absorbed 1-2 hours in? If so what foods?

1 Like
71

this video is pretty good. I like the recommendation to do yoga and meditation both before ingesting.

I wonder how many mushrooms she ate when she was telling Americans Inflation was Transitory?

200 different species of this mushroom.

“5 seconds later it might collapse into what folks call a bad trip, where one could feel like they are going to die.”

2 Likes
72

“there is so much ownership of medicine in this culture by a certain group of people”

“…just taken 2 fistfuls of psilocybin capsuls…SAYONARA…”

1 Like
73

That John Hopkins video is good. Think it is cool he pointed out an angle I never really considered which is how vulnerable patients are during these sessions. He says how important it is to establish proper boundaries in regards to touch and leading patients thoughts which he calls the ‘guru syndrome’.

:+1: Enjoyed that one.

3 Likes
74

Yup, which makes it a perfect date rape drug. Yet another reason why using it in a party setting is a really bad idea.

2 Likes
75

There is a narrative floating arround that Psilocybin can repair nueropathways in the brain?

Has anyone else heard this?

Is there any scientific evidence to support this claim?

3 Likes
76

Yes, research indicates that it increases neuroplasticity! This study done in mice shows an increase in neural dendrites in the frontal cortex after one dose of psilocybin: Psilocybin induces rapid and persistent growth of dendritic spines in frontal cortex in vivo - PubMed
Paul Stamets, the mushroom expert from my neck of the woods in Olympia, WA, has been researching this. He has come up with something called a “Stamets Stack.” This is a microdose (about the size of a grain of corn) of psilocybin along with Lion’s Mane (another non-psychedelic mushroom that increases neuroplasticity) and niacin, which opens up blood vessels in the brain. You take this on a regular basis, like a supplement. The psilocybin dose is so low that you don’t feel it. He believes that this helps to prevent dementia and has published a study that is suggestive that this combination may have positive benefits. Here’s a study done by Stamets and associates that is suggestive of this (although not conclusive and more research on this is needed): Psilocybin microdosers demonstrate greater observed improvements in mood and mental health at one month relative to non-microdosing controls | Scientific Reports

2 Likes
77

Regarding the guy who “nearly overdosed” 5 grams of cubensis mushrooms would definitely be mind blowing and he may have felt like he was overdosing but I’ve never heard of anyone dying of it. Some people take huge doses in the 15-30 gram range! Not recommended for most folks, but haven’t heard of anyone overdosing. Of course, if someone has heart problems or other medical issues, this could be an issue.

2 Likes
78

I haven’t heard of using orange or grapefruit juice to “stablize” MDMA. Not sure what you mean by “stabilize”?
I personally love the combination of cannabis and psilocybin. It’s also great with most other psychedelics, although less so with MDMA. Keep in mind that it may intensify effects so proceed with caution. But it also seems to take the edge off the jitters and increases insights and “aha moments” of inspiration. Results may very, however. Some people hate cannabis and say it makes them more anxious and paranoid. If you are one of those folks then it may not be your medicine. I find that cannabis on it’s own is mildly psychedelic, especially if you use it mindfully and with that intention. If you use it all the time, then it looses it’s magic, in my opinion.

1 Like
79

Just wanted to add I am familiar with Paul also, he is widely regarded as an expert in the field of mushrooms. Great guy, his research and dedication to all mushroom species is admirable.

Me either, but ego death is super common at that dosage. People believe they are truly dying. It is a scary experience to go through and observe but the benefits are immeasurable.

1 Like
80

Yes, as I’ve already discussed, I’ve had a number of ego death experiences with psilocybin or other psychedelics, and a few of those were quite scary (one of which I thought for a while that I had died and was in the afterlife). So yeah, my thought was also that this fellow was having an ego death and not physically dying. But I wasn’t there so don’t really know.

2 Likes