Science on consciousness during deep sleep phases?

Hello Night Clubbers, I heard that at the moment there’s research going on about consciousness/lucidity during deep delta wave sleep phases (which seems, in contrast to lucidity during REM sleep, not to be scientifically proven yet). Anybody know the name of a scientist / a research institute working on this, or a scientific paper covering this topic?


Nor will it, I suspect @Claudia

Ran across this study recently. It’s a statistician’s … happy place. Mentions exact hertz rather than vague “delta” or “theta”. :wink: It should give a starting ground to direct your search.

(spindle parameters are used in addition to wave patterns in the specific brain regions, for example).
(whatever that means)

Way over my head and interest level, but something caught my eye.

Of those woken during NREM sleep, ~1/3 recalled a dream experience, ~1/3 sensed they were dreaming but couldn’t recall what, and ~1/3 woke from a blank slate. So they’re suggesting ~2/3 of “young people” dream during NREM sleep.

(if there were enough studies with enough people w/ the same results, of course.)

Here’s what jumped out:

“Slow waves preceding reports of DE, compared with NE, were significantly less numerous, … were relatively widespread, but the strongest statistical effects were observed in posterior and central brain regions.” [By hashing those findings w/ the DEWR group, the data was]…“suggesting that these findings reflect differences in dreaming, and not in the ability to recall the content of the dream.”

Not at all a conclusion, sounds more like an invitation for further ‘discussion’ (via research).

Your question was on lucidity during non-dreaming. These studies would require bringing high lamas into their sleep labs. Spiritual practitioners as subjects of brain research only occurs to a handful of science-ey people on this planet. I don’t think you’re gonna find too much, to be honest.

I bring this up because of the brain regions mentioned.

When Holecek’s guru “walked the VR plank and jumped”, he said it was so realistic to his lizard brain (survival reaaction) that he had to “go to the far back of his mind” to override the “don’t jump!!!” his senses/brain were screaming.
(likely a misquote, but close).

Fits with “posterior brain region” mentioned in prior article. Which has always been thought to be “sight” until experiments showed the posterior region is actually “orientation in space”. Or “spacial awareness”.

The study:
Folks were blindfolded for 2 weeks, and so their primary orienting sense perception (sight) was suddenly gone. The ‘sense faculty’ was still operational, merely devoid of input.

So they walked around like zombies for 2 weeks - arms out, feeling, touching their way through the house they’ve lived in for years.

Brain scans before/after showed scientifically agreed-upon areas of the brain that “lit up” for touch and for sight. After 2 weeks blindfolded, the “fingers” section of the brain grew and started moving into the “eyes” brain real-estate, as adaptation to the new/changed ‘reality’ of perception in space.

(Schwartz was the author, it was in an earlier ‘neuroscience for the masses’ book, going off memory)

Mastering Sleep Yoga - remaining lucid 24/7 - is a mark of an enlightened person, or one so close that their magical flying carpet bhumi is pretty thin. (as in, the last “ground” before their ‘life’ become irevocably “groundless”)

My understanding is these practitioners, “inner scientists”, have a body but dwell in mind, and mind cannot be measured. An attempt at even defining “mind” only happened in the last decade.

Their mind is what is lucid in dreamless sleep, and their mind is space - union with the darmakaya while still engaging in duality-ville. “Transcend and include” is the instruction.

Also, my understanding is they embody and traverse their super subtle body, their luminous body that is not separate from space.

I have ZERO experience of this and am just spouting concepts I’ve heard until such time I can actually speak from this place - or die trying! :grin:

Science won’t ever be able to prove something using mindsets and methods of proof that come from a super-solid reality.

The “a fish doesn’t know it’s wet” fallacy of science, philosophy, etc.

Here’s another article - I couldn’t find the full text.


“These studies are casting new light on … lucidity [+ other areas of dream research and] appear able to provide further important insights into how the brain generates not only dreaming during sleep but also some dreamlike experiences in waking.”

Now THAT would make a funny ‘Whisper of Wisdom’!

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Thanks so much for sharing these studies!! It will take a while though until I get some understanding… :smiley: I came to ask about “lucidity during non-dreaming” because Charlie Morley mentioned in a dream retreat that Andrew Holecek medtioned some interesting studies going on in this context at the moment… :wink: Nothing really specific…