Muse S - Potentially Accurate Tracking of Sleep Stages

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I’ve been following developments of the Muse neurofeedback devices for a while now and the latest version, the Muse S, seems particularly interesting. It has a variety of sensors including EEG sensors, is comfortable enough to fall asleep wearing, and has a battery life of 10 hours.

Those last two facts immediately led me to speculate on whether it could be worn throughout the night and give an accurate measurement of one’s sleep stages, which is something I’ve wanted for a long time. I emailed the company and they told me that sleep tracking is something they are currently working on. For now the software can be used to help you meditate, and one use case is to help you fall asleep.

If they indeed include accurate sleep stage tracking at some point I will be very interested in this device!

You can read more about the Muse S here.

~ArthurG

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How would you use it, if it achieves what you want?

Set a timer after each rem period to do various techniques?

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WaterDemon, I’d use it to keep track of exactly how much time I am spending in the various sleep stages, to see if I’m getting enough/optimal/desired time in the various stages but especially REM and stage 4 sleep. I would be able to see how various factors/practices affected the amount of time spent in various sleep stages + total sleep time. I would not plan to use it directly as a lucid-dream induction device, but as a powerful sleep stage tracking device.

~ArthurG

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Just be aware about how the device would be connected to your phone. Probably via bluetooth or wifi.

I am not sure about the scientific evidence base landscape about how these radiations affect the brain. I personally can’t imagine that it does not affect the brain somehow

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An interesting point. Maybe I would develop superpowers, who knows? :wink:

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I’ve been fascinated w/ neruofeedback forever now. I’ve seen Muse but now that you post on MuseS, I have to “sit with the wanting” lol!

For me, I always sensed something was wrong (and it was, I got sicker 'till laid off because I couldn’t figure out why I couldn’t figure out what I used to be able to figure out…software developer in prior life).

I got the HeartMath coherence thing and don’t use it. :+1:
Well, I used it when I started meditating (5 mins, max, and I was livid angry afterwards!). Coherence was all over the place. For grins, I tried it again after a few years (and some meditative stability) and it had smoothed out amazingly! I could get into the “green” for most of the session.

Granted, I couldn’t figure out at this point how to use the program to get it off of the easiest setting.

Next, when doctors were blowing me off left and right, I bought a fitbit to see if I was waking up at night. I guess the Charge3 (or 2? the latest Charge model) has the ‘innards’ to track sleeping. They just don’t have the programming yet.

My result - I’m in a coma. :wink:

It fits w/ my 23&me lifestyle predictions: heavy sleeper, non-mover.

RE: waves and the unknown effect on us - I got (and don’t use, go figure) earthing mats. Well, I used it on my pup, who’s not with me anymore. It has to touch your skin, and it’s plugged into the grounding socket of an outlet.

The idea is we run around in rubber soled shoes all day, then are inside concrete slab housing the rest of the time. Growing up in Arizona, we were always taught as kids during monsoon season that when en electrical line was down, to stay in the car. Rubber tires.

Rubber soled shoes.

Earth’s energy.

Or - grounding our own energy.

Alternatively, walk around barefoot outside. So the “earthing” mats were designed to offset this enormous way we are no longer humans in touch w/ our planet.

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I present to you: “Gadgetcentricity”

And a research paper with the title: “Wearables and the Quantified Self”. Who knew academia could be so clever! :rofl:

Regarding the onslaught of EMF radiation and technology wave pollution, one party suggests keeping topped up on your magnesium is essential. (Magnesium is the new Vitamin D - we’re all low)

(my “devil’s advocate” source to balance the hysteria called “the four letter word” < news > - so I can find a middle ground. I’m not a ‘beleiver’ or ‘follower’, I just like hearing different perspectives)

  • Magnesium threonate
  • 12X calcium phosphate

https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2020/03/31/emf-exposure-linked-to-miscarriage-male-infertility.aspx

https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2017/09/03/electromagnetic-fields-harmful-effects.aspx

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UPDATE: Muse S now features overnight sleep tracking. It will tell you how much time you spend in each sleep stage as measured by EEG. Yay!

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Thanks, it’s good to be here!

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Just seeing this thread. Like you Arthur G I was very interested in the MUSE-S given it’s sleep tracking hype. Unfortunately, as of right now, it is still mostly hype. It has not been validated against the gold standard sleep study. I’ve been trying to work with them (since last winter) because I was deciding between the MUSE-S and the DREEM headband for a research study we are conducting. The DREEM headband is the closest to the gold standard, and it’s sleep staging algorithm is as accurate as human staging. The MUSE-S on the other hand is neither validated by the gold standard sleep study nor assessed against human sleep staging. I had bought one to test (which I always do anyway as I have patients/clients asking for recommendations all the time) and find it incredibly inaccurate. At this stage (4 frustrating months) I cannot even state whether I have a faulty headband, their algorithm doesn’t work well, or their algorithm doesn’t work well for the elderly, or anything specific except it doesn’t work for me. (Ed O’Malley)

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Thanks, Ed. It would have been SUPER GREAT to know this before I bought a Muse S – I would definitely have purchased a Dreem headband instead.

As far as I can tell it is accurate in terms of the total amount of time I spend asleep, which is a useful metric for me. I’m also finding value in using it (and the associated app) for meditation purposes.

However, the main reason I bought it was for accurate sleep stage information, so I’m very disappointed on that front. :anguished:

~ArthurG

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Looks like it’s sold out in the USA. What does this cost? Couldn’t tell from the website. Thanks.

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Hi Barry, in perusing the website they list $499 or 12 monthly payments of $42.

~ArthurG

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I can see why it is more targeted at the “experimental/grant or institutionally funded” market for the time being. It’s not a consumer-friendly price point.

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Arthur, you might call their customer support and argue you are not getting any sleep staging data and would like a refund-see what they’ll do.

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Ed, I thought about doing so but currently I feel I’m getting enough value from it. First in terms of using it (and the associated app) for meditation, but also in terms of sleep data. My subjective impression is that, aside from detecting deep sleep, it seems to be accurate enough for my current purposes, for example in terms of the total amount of sleep time.

Based on your answer to one of my questions a while ago, I’ve been paying more attention to what it’s showing me about delta activity than time ostensibly spent in a deep stage of sleep. Nights when I feel better rested show more delta activity in the graph, as well as a higher “deep sleep score.” Lately I’ve been doing more vigorous aerobic exercise, and my deep sleep score / delta activity have noticeably increased, as well as my subjective impression of sleep quality.

Yesterday I did vigorous aerobic activity (VZfit on an Elliptical), spent half an hour in a sauna, and did a 1-hour floatation/isolation session. I wondered if this combination might result in a better sleep and a) subjectively this seemed to be the case; b) when I saw my hypnogram, it looked like this:

Muse hypnogram May 4 2021 Screenshot May 4 2021
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Overall it seems worthwhile for now, and hopefully at least more accurate than a FitBit. It’s my first sleep tracker, but maybe not my last…

~ArthurG

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Seems like a reasonable price to me, though, for what it is. I would definitely consider it worthwhile.

~ArthurG

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Here’s what my histogram looks like, REM all night!

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And from fitbit same night:

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and from oura ring:

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You’ll note the huge discrepancy for me, though total sleep time is reasonable. Your histogram, for you at least, is much more plausible, though as I’ve said in general, relative information is what is most helpful for any of these non-validated devices. If your REM and perceived dream periods correspond, or your deep sleep correlates with your feeling rested, then it is absolutely useful for you.

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WTF. That’s very strange. If that was my histogram I would consider just accepting it as gospel and tell people I’m a REMtastic sleep mutant.

Thanks, yes that’s my experience so far. Also it’s motivational and helping me sleep better. At some point I definitely want to get a validated device – quite possibly the Dreem, though that is currently unavailable in my country. Even if it became available I probably couldn’t prudently budget for it within a year or so of buying the Muse. In any case I would love to wear a validated device along with the Muse S and see how they compare for me.

Meanwhile, putting so much gear on my head when I go to sleep – Muse S, manta sleep mask, and headphones – really makes me feel like an Oneironaut venturing into the depths…

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~ArthurG

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Then, there’s this:

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