🌟 Sacred Teachings

I took one semester of Biblical Hebrew, I hated it. :sweat_smile: It was so difficult getting used to the root system and how the vowels would change. Greek was so much easier.

In Greek “Before Abraham was, I am” is πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί (prin Abra’am genesthai egō eimi). The English translation here is misleading. γενέσθαι is not the past tense of εἰμί like it appears in English where “was” is the past tense of “am”. Instead γενέσθαι is a totally different verb altogether, it comes from γίγνομαι (gignomai) which in this context best means “to become” or “to be born”. It’s the aorist infinitive. Regardless though the tense is pretty clear here, the first verb is in the past tense, the second present. It’s not ambiguous like אֶהְיֶה. Though… Jesus would have originally spoken this in Aramaic which is also a semtic language like Hebrew, so maybe the tense would have been ambiguous as well in the original :sweat_smile:. Regardless though I think by the way they translated this saying they understood him to be making a radical statement about being outside of time.

It’s interesting that the Jews who translated the Septuagint (3rd century BCE) translated אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה‎ as ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν (egō eimi ho ōn)- “I am (the) Being”. I think I personally prefer “I am Being”, we don’t have to translate the article ὁ because Greek puts the particle in front of almost every noun, in a lot of places where we wouldn’t use the article in English. Anyways, the present tense is used here. ὤν is the present participle of εἰμι- “Being”. Greek doesn’t allow for the ambiguity in tense that Hebrew does, so maybe that’s the best the translators could do, and they couldn’t convey the lack of a tense in the Hebrew. Still it could also be that they understood אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה to be present and not past or future. A later early translation- Aquila and Theodoton- actually translated it in the future: ἐσομαι ὁς ἐσομαι (esomai hos esomai), “I will be who I will be”. So there was a question about the proper tense to use to translate אֶהְיֶה, and different translators made different choices on which tense to use. Guess we’ll never know why the Septuagint translators used the present tense, unless they ever invent a time machine. Maybe we could incubate a dream about it and ask them. :laughing:

I am also interested in why they used a participle instead of using εἰμι again, such as in ἐγώ εἰμι τις εἰμι (egō eimi tis eimi)- which would literally be “I am who I am.” Seems they wanted to emphasize the ontology (Beingness) of God- God as Absolute Existence. Later in the verse they use ὁ ὤν again- “This is what you are to say to the Israelites: BEING has sent me to you.” It’s actually possible that this translation “I am Being” is closer to the original Hebrew. Maybe what the Septuagint translators had in front of them wasn’t אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה but something else (I don’t know Hebrew so I’m not even gonna guess what that might have been). The earliest manuscript of the Hebrew Scriptures we have is the Masoretic text which dates from the 7th century CE at the earliest (it could be as late at the 10th century), almost a millennium after the Septuagint was translated. They are the basis for our modern translations. The earliest extant Septuagint manuscripts are from the 4th century CE, 3 centuries earlier than the Masoretic text if the earlier date for the Masoretic text is the correct one. They include this translation ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν. The translation might be much older though. We have historical evidence that the Septuagint was a translation of the Hebrew Bible ordered by the king Ptolemy II in the 3rd century BCE. It’s probably only the Pentateuch, the first 5 books of the Hebrew Scriptures, were translated at this time, not all of what has come down to us as the Hebrew Scriptures. Exodus is in the Pentateuch though, so it’s very likely it was translated at this time. So yeah do with that what you want :upside_down_face:.

I actually forgot before reading the article that you posted that tense in Biblical Hebrew is ambiguous (I think scholars are still debating whether it actually marked for tense or not). I like that… God is, was, and will be: a reality separate from our experience of time. :smile: Just like your translation: “I am he who is, was, and will be he who is was and will be.” :smile:

Sorry for geeking out about the translation there, this is what I was trained to do in seminary and the habit dies hard :sweat_smile:.That’s probably more than you ever wanted to know about these verses. :laughing:

EDIT: Just remembered that the Dead Sea Scrolls contained fragments of the Pentateuch. Exodus 3:14 is contained on fragment 4Q1. The text follows the Masoretic closely here, though the first אֶהְיֶה is illegible. Couldn’t find a date for this scroll, but material found in the cave it was in is dated to around 197 BCE–46 CE. So that puts it much closer to the Septuagint than I was working with above. This kind of knocks me down a peg haha. :sweat_smile: Still I wonder about that Septuagint translation… it seems to depart in a major way from the Hebrew. :thinking:

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Rupert Spira. a neoadvitan teacher, giving a model of reincarnation based on the three states of consciousness: waking, dreaming and deep sleep. I really dig what he says and I feel it resonates with the teachings here.

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Lots to chew on here. Looking forward to Andrew’s dialogue with him, whenever it takes place. I also like this talk by him about awareness. The focus is masterful.

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Pardon my French (Im not fluent :upside_down_face:), but I think your reply was fucking brilliant and fucking awesome! Loved it! Thank you for taking the time to write that, it was so informative. I geek out over this stuff too, so I am always all ears to this stuff and have a voracious appetitie :slightly_smiling_face:

This is interesting.

I really like this translation as well. I think it also gives a sense of timelessness.

The problem I have with using the future tense verses using the present tense, is that, as Ekhart Tolle, and I think many spiritual masters have believed throughout time, that “all you really have is the present [moment]”. think this is also possible reasoning for the translations “I am being”, “before Abraham was, I AM,” and “I am who I am”. Nothing quite like the present :wink:

Where does it say this? Can you quote the passage or chapter?

Yeah I think that is what makes it so cool and really artisitcally well done. Its impossible to put into words the nature of God, just as it is impossible to describe Non-duality, but I think in the bible quotes weve talked about, they did a good job at least in making people ears prick up and scratch their heads at the words, which encourages further in deapth investitgations.

I think dreams and visions were how more than a few prophets were able to ‘vocalize’ the words of God.

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So am I. It should be a really rich and worthwhile conversation. Thanks for that link, I’ll take a look at it!

Was reflecting while listening to what I posted yesterday whether the three stages of consciousness account for why religions like Christianity, Hinduism, and Buddhism describe foundational trinities in the way they talk about reality. God the Father, God the Holy Spirit, God the Son. Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu. Dharmakaya, Samboghakaya, Nirmanakaya. Is it a useful thing to say that these trinities might correspond to the three stages of consciousness: deep sleep, dreaming, waking?

Just an interesting thought I had while listening to the teaching.

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Haha, that’s great! :grin: Glad you found it helpful. If you have any other Bible verses you’re interested in, I’m happy to take a look. :smiley:

For me I think it’s closer to my own thoughts about what God is. As Paul Tillich said: “God is the Ground of all Being.” I think he was heavily influenced by Meister Eckhart when he said that. Eckhart talks about God being the Ground, that’s his main theme. Whereas the phrase “I AM who I AM” includes an “I” which people might interpret as an ego. I’ve always been uncomfortable with thinking God has an ego, so I prefer the BEING translation. Though the way I see the “I AM” translation, the “I” is similar to the Hindu notion of Atman, the essence-I behind all reality. That makes it more palatable for me.

That is an intriguing possibility. I have the same thoughts. The future translation doesn’t do it for me. God is only to be found in the present, not the future. Perhaps that is what the Septuagint translators were trying to get at with the BEING translation.

The passage we’ve been discussing is only the first part of Exodus 3:!4. The whole verse is: " God said to Moses, “I am who I am.[a] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”

I find it interesting that instead of “I AM has sent you” the Septuagint has “BEING has sent you.” So they are consistent with the use of ὁ ὤν for the name of God. They could have had “I AM has sent you” since earlier in the verse God says God’s name is “I AM being”. But they chose "BEING " instead.

The context of this passage is the burning bush scene where God confronts Moses, tells Moses God is going to save the Israelities from the Egyptians, and Moses asks what name he should call God when he returns to the Israelites with the news.

Judaism like Islam is very anticonic. You are prohibited from making a physical image or representation of God (Christianity on the other hand has traditionally had a more Hindu view of images- they are an aid for devotion- that is until the Protestant Reformation and groups like the Puritans started smashing crucifixes). I think this position is rooted in this verse. It’s a very wise attempt to discourage people from making mental images of God that could hinder their spiritual progress. The same reason why Buddhists talk about emptiness… it’s not a word that makes it easy for you to build a conceptual image out of. The writers of Exodus- or perhaps it was God Godself- realized the trap of having a fixed notion of who God is and tried to steer people away from it with passages like Exodus 3:14.

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My favorite Yoga Nidra guided meditation. This is where I first learned the practice. Simple spoken instructions, no distracting music.

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That is a really interesting thought. Would definitely love to hear what Andrew thinks on that one. Makes sense to me.

I had the thought once that maybe Brahma, Shiva, and Vishnu, correspond to what creates, maintains, and then destroys each one of the seasons we experience. This also kinda corresponds to astrology’s cardinal, fixed, and mutible signs.

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The autobiography of Mike Snider The Triune Self, the dude whose audio I posted in the “Miracles” thread (where all my troubles didn’t fade away :grinning:).

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One of my favorite anciemt scriptures:

" There was something formless and perfect
before the universe was born.
It is serene.

Empty.
Solitary.

Unchanging.
Infinite.

Eternally present.
It is the mother of the universe.
For lack of a better name,
I call it the Tao.
It flows through all things,
inside and outside, and returns
to the origin of all things.

The Tao is great.
The universe is great.
Earth is great.
Man is great.
These are the four great powers.

Man follows the earth.
Earth follows the universe.
The universe follows the Tao.
The Tao follows only itself.

Verse 25
(translation by Stephen Mitchell, 1995)"

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Most definitely, do you learn Latin as well as Greek and Hebrew?

" Luke 17:21

21 neque dicent ecce hic aut ecce illic ecce enim regnum Dei intra vos est"

This is from the Latin Vulgate, I am curious what the Greek and Hebrew translations say and the literal meaning is of the words used (Not sure if there are Hebrew versions becuase it is New Testament?)

Especially interested in the “Regnum Dei intra vos est” part

Intra= among, within
vos= you all, you (plural)
regnum= kingdom
Dei= of God, (genitive)

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Don’t mean to jump in unannounced but wanted to see if you could help me understand these bible verses.

37:29 “The righteous will possess the land and live in it forever.”

Also,

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

On the surface I think I understand these words but maybe there is more I’m missing?

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@NightHawk999

Love the I-Ching and have a history with it, and the flip of a coin. :slightly_smiling_face:

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The Way

There is being, wonderful, perfect;
It existed before heaven and earth.
How quiet it is!
How spiritual it is!

It stands alone and it does not change.
It moves around and around, but
Does not on this account suffer.

All life comes from it.
It wraps everything with its love as in a garment,
And yet does not demand to be Lord.

I do not know its name,
And so I call it Tao, the Way

‘Lao-Tsu’

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I know some Latin, I took two years of it in high school. Rusty though. I don’t know any Hebrew. And for Christian scriptures you don’t need to know Hebrew, it was all written in Greek. Syriac (a dialect of Aramaic), Coptic and Latin are also important languages to know if you are studying early Christianity. I don’t know Aramaic or Coptic.

The Greek of this verse is simpler than the Latin:

οὐδὲ ἐροῦσιν ‘Ἰδοὺ ὧδε’ ἤ ‘Ἐκεῖ·’ ἰδοὺ γὰρ ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐντὸς ὑμῶν ἐστιν.”

Literally

“Nor will they say Behold here, or there Behold. For the kingdom of (the) God within you (all) is.”

It’s interesting the translation history of ἐντὸς. In Greek concordias it is always glossed as either “within/inside” as both “among/ in the midst of”. Different translators translate it differently depending on their preference. The more mystical people prefer the “within you” translation. The more conventional people prefer the “in the midst of you” translation. I think this is a modern phenomenon though. There is no attestation of ἐντὸς being used anywhere else in Greek literature of the time to mean “among” or “in the midst of”. Furthermore the only other time ἐντὸς is used in the Christian scriptures it clearly mean inside: Matthew 18:20 “Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.” ἐντὸς here is contrasted with ἐκτὸς which means “outside”- making it clear ἐντὸς means “inside”.

I think the context of this verse makes it clear that “inside” is the correct translation. The context, starting from verse 20:

“20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you.”

Jesus is saying here that the Pharisees who were looking for the coming of the Kingdom of God were looking in the wrong place. They were looking for the Kingdom of God in time, thinking it would be an actual kingdom that manifested on earth. Instead Jesus was saying that they wouldn’t find the Kingdom of God in anything they could see “the Kingdom of God is not something that can be observed.” They needed to look inside. Jesus was contrasting the materialistic concerns of the Pharisees with the spiritual nature of the Kingdom of God. He was also saying that the Kingdom of God already is- it’s here and now “within you”. The Pharisees didn’t need to wait for the Kingdom of God to come, it is already here. He also democratized access to the Kingdom of God by placing it within people not outside in the world in some future time.

If Luke had wanted to mean “in the midst of” he would have used the phrase ἐν μέσῳ which occurs 4 times in the gospel of Luke and 2 times in Acts (which was also written by Luke). He didn’t, however, using ἐντὸς instead. I feel this is because ἐν μέσῳ was an inappropriate phrase for what he is trying to convey in this verse.

Looking at early Christian translations of this verse:

The Vetus Latina (mid 4th century CE), the earliest Latin translation of the Christian scriptures that we know of (before the Vulgate), renders the verse as ecce enim regnum Dei intra vos est. The preposition used here- intrā- can mean inside/within, during or under. It does not mean “among” however. Nowhere in Latin literature has intrā been used to mean “among/ in the midst of”, making it clear the translator thought “within/inside” was the proper translation.

St. Jerome- who translated Luke and the rest of the Christian scriptures into Latin and created what we know as the Latin Vulgate (late 4th century CE)- also rendered ἐντὸς as “within” by using intrā.

I don’t know Syriac (which is an important dialect of Aramaic used in the Eastern part of the early Christian church) but I found this article which also argues that the Peshitta and the Herklean (both early 5th century CE)- two important early translations of the Christian scriptures into Syriac- unambiguously translated ἐντὸς as “within”.

Here’s the Coptic BTW:

ⲞⲨⲦⲈ ⲚⲚⲈⲨⲚⲀϪⲞⲞⲤ ⲀⲚ ϪⲈ ⲈⲒⲤ ϨⲎⲎⲦⲈ ⲘⲠⲈⲒⲘⲀ. ⲎⲠⲎ. ⲈⲒⲤ ⲦⲘⲚⲦⲢⲢⲞ ⲄⲀⲢ ⲘⲠⲚⲞⲨⲦⲈ ⲘⲠⲈⲦⲚⲤⲀ ⲚϨⲞⲨⲚ.

Coptic was also an important language for early Christianity. I think there are attested translations of the gospels in Coptic from the 3rd century. I have no idea what this text says, and I also don’t know it’s textual history- if it represents an early translation or not- but I did put the words into a Coptic dictionary and it says ⲚϨⲞⲨⲚ means “within”, nothing about “among”.

I feel it’s pretty clear that “among/ in the midst of” is an incorrect translation, and that what Jesus means here is that the Kingdom of God is an interior spiritual reality that is available to all of us, and that to become a citizen of the Kingdom of God we need to do some serious spiritual work inside of ourselves in order to find it.

Despite all this, I personally like the ambiguity of whether to translate ἐντὸς as “within” or “among”. :sweat_smile: It speaks to the nature of Jesus as the Christ consciousness within us but also that which is among us and between us.

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Love it! So good, and so true!

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Is the Greek “you (all)” here like the latin Vos, which is plural, meaning multiple 'you’s?

This is really interesting. I side with the “within” translation rather than among. I think if among was meant, they would have used “Inter” in the vulgate translation, rather than “Intra”.

Amen, you and me both :slightly_smiling_face:

Absolutely! I think you are spot on with this.

This was really informative, I am glad you mentioned this.

I would both agree and disagree in part with this statement. I think the spirtual work is absolutely nessissary to find the kingdom within ourselfs, but I think like the Tao, and like Buddhist ‘Nothingness’, the kingdom, (like God) is infinite and permeates everything, thats why it can be tapped into and found within each of us, it is omnipresent.

Really glad that you mentioned this, becuase that insight had never occured to me before. Prehaps the Greek was purposely ambigious, to denote omnipresence by saying it is both “within” and “among” you all. Very cool and deep stuff, appreciate your wisdom and clarity on this. :slightly_smiling_face:

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Yea ὑμῶν is you plural.

I should clarify- the Kingdom is only accessible within ourselves. It is everywhere of course, but it will only become visibly externally if we put in the proper amount of spiritual work. That’s my own thoughts about that, Jesus doesn’t say that explicitly. I relate that process to the verses @mbready asked me to look at, in fact I feel that the whole book of Revelation is a symbolic way to talk about an inner journey of spiritual transformation that creates a “new heaven and new earth” for us to experience right here and now.

Well it’s only ambiguous in translation among current languages such as English/ French, etc. I don’t believe the Greek is ambiguous at all. I think the correct translation is “within” and all readers of the verse in early Christianity would have understood it that way. However at some point the “among/ in the midst of” translation became popular… I think this is probably because some people became uncomfortable with the theological implications of the “within” translation and so started glossing ἐντὸς incorrectly as “among/ in the midst of”. In other words, they brought their preconceived notions to the text and started translating ἐντὸς incorrectly as “among/ in the midst of” because they thought ἐντὸς couldn’t mean “within” even though it clearly does. So the ambiguity only comes in later in modern translations. However I like to think things don’t happen by accident, and it is fun to “embrace” the ambiguous modern translations a bit even if you know they are bad translations and incorrect.

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I wonder if perhaps the clerics feared the possible loss of control & authority, if “within” would be the accepted interpretation?
After all, “within” is highly individual and clearly implies that in order to progress on the path, the individual would need to do the spiritual work within oneself.
And if an individual accepts that it’s their own spiritual work “within”, then they take more and more responsibility for that inner work and becomes less and less reliant on any institutional authority.
A congregation of highly self-reliant contemplatives … a beautiful concept for some, a nightmare for others.

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