Not for the purpose of play, that is lucid dreaming.
Have you watched Andrews Webinars on the 9 stages of Dream Yoga?
Yes DY is used to help with illusory form practice.
This was kind of along the lines of what I was thinking.
Or connect with a ‘dead’ loved one, or dog or pet?
I am wondering if it could be used with fear and shadow work as well.
Please do, I am dying to read it!
OK I will do that soon. And yes, I could imagine it could be used to face fears, do shadow work, or connect with a dead loved one or pet. It raises philosophical issues, however, regarding whether we are just interacting with parts of our own psyche, or with other beings in the spiritual realms. My own intuitive answer is that it could be all of the above.
Me as well. Great minds think a like
You mentioned you are Jungian therapist?
I heard a rumor that Jung was into western astrology. Any truth to it?
@NightHawk999 I got interested in dreams in my early 20’s which led me to Jung. I studied a lot of Jungian Psychology in my graduate programs and studied with a Jungian Analyst named Arnold Mindell, who created an offshoot of Jungian Psychology in which he looked at everything in our lives and world as if it’s a dream with symbolic meaning. I was never certified as a traditional Jungian Analyst. With that being said . . . yes, Jung had an interest in astrology. I found this webpage that gives some background: Jung on Astrology - Jungian Center for the Spiritual Sciences
I myself have not studied astrology in any detail but had my chart done at one time. Jung was also very interested in the I Ching, and I have worked more with that in terms of divination.
this is fantastic, thank you so much for the link, it was hugely informative!
" Jung on Astrology
“Astrology and other methods of divination may certainly be called the science of antiquity.”
Jung (1931)[1]
“Certain mantic procedures seem to have died out, but astrology, which in our own day has attained an eminence never known before, remains very much alive. Nor has the determinism of the scientific epoch been able to extinguish altogether the persuasive power of the synchronicity principle.”
Jung (1955)[2]
“The basic meaning of the horoscope is that, by mapping out the positions of the planets and their relations to one another (aspects), together with the distribution of the signs of the zodiac at the cardinal points, it gives a picture first of the psychic and then of the physical constitution of the individual. It represents, in essence, a system of original and fundamental qualities in a person’s character, and can therefore be regarded as an equivalent of the individual psyche.”
Jung (1950)[3]
“It would be frivolous of me to try to conceal from the reader that such reflections are not only exceedingly unpopular but even come perilously close to those turbid fantasies which becloud the minds of world-reformers and other interpreters of “signs and portends.” But I must take this risk, even if it means putting my hard-won reputation for truthfulness, reliability, and capacity for scientific judgment in jeopardy. I can assure my readers that I do not do this with a light heart. I am, to be quite frank, concerned for all those who are caught unprepared by the events in question and disconcerted by their incomprehensible nature. Since, so far as I know, no one has yet felt moved to examine and set forth the possible psychic consequences of this foreseeable astrological change, I deem it my duty to do what I can in this respect.”
Jung (1958)[4]
As the above quote indicates, Jung had great concern for his reputation as a scientist. He always thought of himself as an empiricist: “Empiricist” was the adjective he preferred people to use when describing him.[5] It was as an empiricist that Jung got into astrology, and in this essay we will discuss how Jung found it useful. Far from regarding astrology as useful, most modern people in the West dismiss it as medieval mumbo-jumbo. I know I did, years ago, when my mind was still stuck in the small box of the Ivy League mentality. I’ll append a note to this essay on how I came to appreciate astrology, and, like Jung, how I developed an affinity for the “unpopular things” that had “this uncanny attraction for”[6] Jung. We’ll begin by defining astrology and examine Jung’s understanding of it and the research he undertook in it. Then we will consider how Jung used it, both in his clinical practice and in his analysis of the evolution of our collective consciousness.
Definitions of Astrology
Etymology provides the simplest definition of “astrology:” “the study of the stars,” from the Greek astron + logos.[7] Jung was more explicit in a short description he appended in a note to his essay on synchronicity:
“I should perhaps add a few explanatory words for those readers who do not feel at home with the ancient art and technique of astrology. Its basis is the horoscope, a circular arrangement of sun, moon, and planets according to their relative positions in the signs of the zodiac at the moment of an individual’s birth. There are three main positions, viz., those of the sun, moon, and the so-called ascendant; the last has the greatest importance for the interpretation of an activity: the ascendant represents the degree of the zodiacal sign rising over the eastern horizon at the moment of birth. The horoscope consists of 12 so-called “houses,” sectors of 30° each. Astrological tradition ascribes different qualities to them as it does to the various “aspects,” i.e. angular relations of the planets and the luminaria (sun and moon), and to the zodiacal signs.”[8]
Jung recognized the ancient roots and usage of astrology: Multiple times he referred to astrology as “the science of antiquity,”[9] “the ancient art and technique of astrology,”[10] and “this age-old ‘scientia intuitiva,’…”.[11]
“Ancient” and “age-old” though it may be, Jung also saw astrology as growing in popularity. He noted that “at least a thousand times more horoscopes are cast today than were cast 300 years ago,”[12] and “that the heyday of astrology was not in the benighted Middle Ages but is in the middle of the twentieth century, when even the newspapers do not hesitate to publish the week’s horoscopes.”[13] He claimed that “nowadays the horoscope has almost attained the rank of a visiting card,”[14] and that “astrology… in our own day has attained an eminence never known before.”[15]
Astrology “remains very much alive,”[16] but not without its detractors, and Jung acknowledged this when he noted “the cultural Philistines [who] believed… that astrology had been disposed of long since”[17]–people who “obey the unwritten but strictly observed convention: ‘One does not speak of such things.’ They are only whispered about, no one admits them, for no one wants to be considered all that stupid.”[18] Not at all a “cultural Philistine,” Jung had an appreciative understanding of the art, technique and science of astrology.
Jung’s Understanding of Astrology
More than just defining astrology as art, technique or science, Jung recognized that astrology provides a “psychological description of character,”[19] with the planets corresponding “to the individual character components.”[20] He felt “the horoscope is the chronometric equivalent of individual character, through all the characterological components of the personality,”[21] and that a person’s natal chart could provide insights into “what her [the patient’s] soul intended for her to achieve.”[22] Our natal chart, in other words, is like a mandala of our soul’s plan for this incarnation.
By comparing the movement of the planets through the year to one’s natal chart, in the process of examining the “transits,” Jung felt we can get an example of synchronicity in action: Transits provide a “meaningful coincidence of planetary aspects and positions with the character or the existing psychic state of the questioner,”[23] on the individual level, and insights into “unconscious, introspective perceptions of the activity of the collective unconscious”[24] on the collective level.
These insights can be for short temporal frames–months or years of a society’s activities–and for the much longer millennial time frames of eons. Jung got the epithet “father of the New Age”[25] for his idea of how the “collective psyche” of the human race changes with the “end of one Platonic month and at the beginning of another.”[26] He felt obligated, as a medical doctor, to alert people to the nature of our time–how we are living through a major cosmic transformation as the age of Pisces gives way to the age of Aquarius:
“It is not presumption that drives me, but my conscience as a psychiatrist that bids me fulfill my duty and prepare those few who will hear me for coming events which are in accord with the end of an era. As we know from ancient Egyptian history, they are manifestations of psychic changes which always appear at the end of one Platonic month and at the beginning of another. Apparently they are changes in the constellation of psychic dominants, of the archetypes, or “gods” as they used to be called, which bring about, or accompany, long-lasting transformations of the collective psyche. This transformation started in the historical era and left its traces first in the passing of the eon of Taurus into that of Aries, and then of Aries into Pisces, whose beginning coincides with the rise of Christianity. We are now nearing that great change which may be expected when the spring point enters Aquarius.”[27]
Why did Jung feel driven to speak of the shift from one age to another? Because the “psychic changes”[28] characteristic of these transition times are not always pleasant. Just as we, on the individual level, can feel confused, distracted, anxious and insecure in a time of transition (e.g. adolescence),[29] so shifts of eon can show up as widespread feelings of melancholy, malaise, discontent, anxiety and fear that run through all the cultures of the planet. Jung wanted to warn us, so we–“those few who will hear”[30] him–can experience these “psychic changes” consciously and thus limit the destructive impulses they could induce.
Jung’s Research on Astrology
Jung became aware of the zodiacal shift of eon in his researches in astrology. Most of this research focused on the charts of individuals, and for one “experiment”[31] he reported in 1955, he studied 800 charts.[32] In volume 8 of his Collected Works, forty-three paragraphs[33] are devoted to a report of his examination of the charts of married couples and the correspondence of their sun-moon aspects, with sun-moon conjunctions and sun-moon oppositions being quite common. What was the result of this experiment? Jung reports that
“The statistical material shows that a practically as well as theoretically improbable chance combination occurred which coincides in the most remarkable way with traditional astrological expectations. That such a coincidence should occur at all is so improbable and so incredible that nobody could have dared to predict anything like it.”[34]
But Jung had scant appreciation for statistics: They obliterate the individual, which always was Jung’s focus.[35] But the scientist relies on statistics for their objectivity. Jung, however, recognized what J.B. Rhine discovered years before Jung did his experiment: “Rhine’s ESP results… were also favorably affected by expectation, hope, and faith.”[36] Jung and his assistants had worked with astrology for years, interpreting individuals’ charts, and knew that many marriages had certain sun-moon configurations, and their “lively interest in the outcome of the experiment”[37] skewed the statistics, just as the participants in Rhine’s parapsychological investigations had become “accessories to the deed,”[38] indicating how “the psychic processes of the interested parties were affected by the synchronistic arrangement.”[39] In other words, Jung felt that the value of astrology lies in its evocation of synchronicity to provide insights into individuals’ lives and societies’ situations.[40]
How Jung Used Astrology
To get insights was one way Jung used astrology: It can “give… a more or less total picture of the individual’s character.”[41] “From the remotest times” astrologers have seen a correspondence between “the various planets, houses, zodiacal signs, and aspects,”[42] all of which have “meanings that serve as a basis for a character study or for an interpretation of a given situation.”[43] For example, Jung worked up the chart of a woman patient. She presented “with strong inner oppositions whose union and reconciliation constituted her main problem.”[44] What did her chart show? A “conjunction of the sun and moon as the symbol of the union of opposites,”[45] and Jung concluded that this union, i.e. the reconciliation of the tension of opposites, was “what her soul intended for her to achieve.”[46]
Jung felt that “planetary aspects” can give us clues about the individual’s “psycho-physiological disposition:”[47]
“by mapping out the positions of the planets and their relations to one another (aspects), together with the distribution of the signs of the zodiac at the cardinal points, it [the birth chart] gives a picture first of the psychic and then of the physical constitution of the individual.”[48]
and many of his students, e.g. Liz Greene, Alice Howell, Ellynor Barz, and Kathleen Burt,[49] have taken up his work, in the understanding that, as Jung put it, “the entire horoscope… is the chronometric equivalent of individual character, through all the characterological components of the personality,”[50] and, just as we change over time, so the transit chart can illustrate, explain and time our growth:
“The journey through the planetary houses, … therefore signifies the overcoming of a psychic obstacle, or of an autonomous complex, suitably represented by a planetary god or demon.”[51]
I knew none of this thirty-five years ago, when my life fell apart. It was an astrologer who made sense of what I was going through, and, in so doing, saved my sanity.
A “Paradigm Popper:” How I Came to Be an Astrologer
Part of my problem, I now recognize, was that I had had an Ivy League education. That is, I had been “trained into orthodoxy”[52] at a leading university which left my mind in a very small box of rationality, objectivity, quantification, and scholarly rigor. Stuff like crystal balls, Tarot readings, psychics’ predictions and astrology I dismissed as hogwash valued only by credulous, uneducated fools. In this lamentable state I was completely unprepared to cope with a dream I had on November 25, 1983. There was no action, just words: “Friends will die. Relatives will die. You will give up everything, and your life will be transformed.” Then I woke up. I was married at the time and I asked Ed if he had heard the words. He said no, so I repeated them, and then, because I rated dreams on a par with witches’ brew, I dismissed the whole experience.
Five days later I learned that my friend Hazel Crafts had dropped dead the night before. When I told Ed, he reminded me of the dream. But I pooh-poohed the idea that the dream might have been predictive. “Oh, that’s just a coincidence!” It was to be many years, and many more predictive dreams before I became convinced that there’s no such thing as coincidence.
Just as the dream said, everything in my life began to fall away. Over the next six months I lost two aunts, an uncle, and got divorced. And I kept having these weird dreams! I thought I was losing my mind. When I would seek solace from my friends that I was not actually going crazy, they gave me no satisfaction at all, as they weren’t psychiatrists. But they began to send me hither and yon to every psychologist, counselor, therapist and shrink they could find (and in eastern Maine in 1984 there were not many of them).
So it was in May of 1984 I thought I was about to see another mental health professional when my student Miranda suggested I consult someone she knew. She came with me to a nice house in Bar Harbor, and it was only while walking up the steps to this house that I learned I was about to see not a therapist but an astrologer. An astrologer!???!!
I was livid, and castigated Miranda for thinking that astrology was of any use. It was just bogus hogwash. And I refused to go in. Miranda then told me that the woman had done all the work to create and analyze my chart, and she would have to pay the woman even if I didn’t go in. Then I felt exasperated, but also guilty–that one of my students was going to pay for this mumbo-jumbo.
With great reluctance and skepticism I went in and sat down. Initially my body language reeked of disdain and disbelief, but then I began to hear things that resonated. This woman somehow knew what I was experiencing. She seemed to know me. More than this, she was telling me when things would improve, timing the passage of this interval filled with turmoil and torment.
It turned out that my “upending experience,” beginning with the first of my “voice-over” dreams, was timed by the classic Uranus transit opposing Uranus, which, given my chart, occurred at my mid-heaven, i.e. a sensitive part of my chart and life: my home, my career, my marriage and my sense of myself were all up for grabs and, just as the dream forewarned, everything in my life was falling away.[53]
Of course, given the limitations of my Ivy League training, I saw no way to explain the accuracy of the reading but to accuse the woman of being a psychic, but she denied that and said that I could do just what she did, if I learned how to identify and interpret the symbols, that astrology is a very powerful (and complex) symbol system. This presented me with an intellectual challenge I could not resist, which is how I became a student of Frances Sakoian, the foremost American astrologer of her generation, author of dozens of books, and my first teacher.[54] Subsequently I got into Jung’s use of astrology for psychological insights through the work of Liz Greene, founder of the Centre for Psychological Astrology and author of dozens of works combining her training as a certified Jungian analyst and her expertise in chart analysis.[55] That’s how I became a practicing astrologer, and how I got myself out of the box of the limited mentality I was trained in, so that now, like Jung, I appreciate the “unpopular things” that our Western intellectual tradition dismisses.
Sue Mehrtens is the author of this and all the other blog essays on this site. The opinions expressed in these essays are her own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of other Jungian Center faculty or Board members. Honesty, as well as professional courtesy, require that you give proper attribution to the author if you post this essay elsewhere."
Never heard of this before:
" he I Ching or Yi Jing (Chinese: 易經, Mandarin: [î tɕíŋ] ⓘ), usually translated Book of Changes or Classic of Changes, is an ancient Chinese divination text that is among the oldest of the Chinese classics. The I Ching was originally a divination manual in the Western Zhou period (1000–750 BC). Over the course of the Warring States and early imperial periods (500–200 BC), it transformed into a cosmological text with a series of philosophical commentaries known as the “Ten Wings”.[1] After becoming part of the Chinese Five Classics in the 2nd century BC, the I Ching was the basis for divination practice for centuries across the Far East and was the subject of scholarly commentary. During the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries, it took on an influential role in Western understanding of East Asian philosophical thought.[2]
As a divination text, the I Ching is used for a traditional Chinese form of cleromancy known as I Ching divination in which bundles of yarrow stalks are manipulated to produce sets of six apparently random numbers ranging from 6 to 9. Each of the 64 possible sets corresponds to a hexagram, which can be looked up in the I Ching. The hexagrams are arranged in an order known as the King Wen sequence. The interpretation of the readings found in the I Ching has been discussed and debated over the centuries. Many commentators have used the book symbolically, often to provide guidance for moral decision-making, as informed by Confucianism, Taoism and Buddhism. The hexagrams themselves have often acquired cosmological significance and been paralleled with many other traditional names for the processes of change such as yin and yang and Wu Xing.’
Sounds interesting.
There is some wisdom there I can vouch for. I would not tie it to witchcraft or divination as some do, I think its more on par with a weather report & gives some insights into ego.
Dude! You never heard of the I Ching?
It was my first foray into Eastern philosophy and spirituality, and Jung was the guy who turned me onto it. The easiest way to throw an I Ching, is not with the old yarrow stick method, but just by casting 3 coins 6 times to generate a hexagram. The I Ching was my first foray into Eastern philosophy and spirituality. It led me into Taosim and taking Tai Chi classes, then into Buddhist meditation from there. This was in my 20’s.
I just ordered a new translation of the I Ching by Chinese-American Benebell Wen. I haven’t had a chance to read it yet, but it looks like it contains lots of interesting commentary and attempts to connect the I Ching to it’s ancient shamanic origins.
You could start a thread on this topic as well. I know nothing about these texts. I would like to learn more, and would definitely appreciate the cliff notes version, and key take aways.
My 20s were spent observing the human elements and stars, and trying to eventually wrap my head around the covert marriage between the two.
Mystery not solved, but illuminated. I can definitely vouche for much of the things Jung said in the above quotes.
This deeply interests me. Anything that is both time tested and has notoriety as being a classic cultural text I think holds great wisdom.
The hexagram is intriguing and puzzling.
Here’s an online version of the I Ching that is the “cliff notes version.”
Think of a life question that you want to gain some wisdom about. Go to this website and it will generate an I Ching hexagram reading (the computer version of throwing 3 coins 6 times) and give you a reading. Jung believed that this worked through his concept of “synchronicity.”
This is an article about research being planned on doing group healing circles using MDMA with victims of the Hamas October 7th attack in Israel. They are also hoping to eventually be able to do healing circles with Palestinians as well.
There have also been Israeli’s and Palestinians doing ayuahuasca ceremonies together for several years. There is a link to an article about that in the MDMA article. It’s at least a candle of hope in a very dark situation. MDMA psychotherapy may get FDA approval as a treatment for PTSD later this year as there is now a solid research base behind it.
In Boulder, Colorado there is a clinic in which one can experience IV DMT journeys. DMT is the active ingredient in ayahuasca. It is also smoked, but this results in brief 15 minute journeys. The IV journeys last much longer and allow one to remain in this space and explore for longer periods of time. People report journeys into parallel dimensions and conversing with the entities that dwell there. Are these journeys into one’s own psyche or into actual parallel dimensions? Many folks who experience this believe it to be the latter.
This same clinic offers legal psilocybin journeys, IV ketamine and cannabis enhanced therapy.
I think there are far more candles of hope than most people realize. I believe the majorities of these 2 populations want peace, not war. Its the few in power in countries around the world promoting the bloodshed and horror.
Bullets and bombs cost money, who is getting rich selling them???
Do you think there are not more than a few contractors and businesses licking their chops at the deals they will make to rebuild a new Starbucks or McDonalds (in the place of where a family owned restraunt or mom & Pop store used to be) after the cities have turned to rubble???
I think the MDMA research is really interesting, I did not know this therapy was so widespread. I think it might end up being more effective than psilocybin.
Very cool.
i was told on Christmas that there are NA tribes in US that you can pay to do the real Ayahuasca ceremony. That would be they way I would want to do it, but not sure if that info is true or not.
Have you tried DMT vs the organic Ayahuasca? Does one make you sicker or more nausious than the other, or the same? Which do you prefer?
I agree that there are economic forces at play motivating this war and most war. Gaza has a lot of beach front property that I’m sure that Israel would like to have and develop. But the other factor at play, in my opinion is multi-generational collective trauma. Gabor Mate, one of the leading experts on trauma (and himself a Jewish holocaust survivor as an infant) has produced some youtube vidoes about this. Just as trauma tends to get passed down through family lines for generations, so also does it get acted out by populations that have been traumatized. And God knows that both the Jewish population and the Palestinian population have been traumatized for generations. In my opinion this has to do with multi-generational trauma cycles. Traumatized Israelis then traumatize Palestinians who in turn traumatize Israeli’s who then in turn traumatize Palestinians. And so the cycle continues. And MDMA may be the best and quickest and gentlest PTSD therapy that we have. Psilocybin has been researched more for depression and other indicators but there is also a lot of anecdotal evidence that it heals trauma. But it has been researched less for trauma and it can be a wilder ride that MDMA. MDMA is likely to get FDA approval for PTSD soon, but psilocybin will likely follow as a treatment for Major Depression.
I have had much more experience with ayahuasca than with pure DMT. I have never been to South America but have done numerous ceremonies in North America with folks who have trained in South America. Ayahuasca will definitely have more nausea and vomiting than inhaling pure DMT as it is consumed orally. DMT is inactivated in the stomach, so you can’t consume it orally unless it is combined with a mono-amine oxidase inhibitor. The ayahuasca vine is a mild MAO inhibitor and then chacruna leaves are added which contain the DMT. Those South American shamans must have been genius and/or inspired by some higher source to figure that out. They believe that the vomiting is part of the medicine because you release trauma and stuff that you are carrying when you purge. I have tried inhaling vaporized DMT on a few occasions but my lungs apparently couldn’t take the full dose and coughed much of it out. I got enough to see some swirling fractals briefly but not enough to fully enter the DMT universe.
You have heard about North American Indians using ayahuasca? The only thing I’ve heard about in that regard is that some Native American Church meetings are now using ayahuasca (they usually use peyote). It’s traditionally a South American medicine, not a North American Native medicine. There are also some places run by non-natives who have gotten trained by South American native shamans. Also check out a place in Costa Rica called “Rhythmia.” It’s basically a resort that brings in South American native ayahuasqueros to run the ceremonies, and they also have Western medical doctors, yoga and meditation classes, etc. I’ve never been there but if you have the money to go, it may be a very safe place to experience that medicine. The spiritual work done by well trained shamans, the songs that are sung, etc, are as much a part of the medicine as the herbal brew that is consumed.
That is a really good point about the prime real estate as well as the collective trauma.
So true, and very, very sad. IIs my sincere hope that this nightmare will mean revert back to peace talks and negotiations.
Definitely a wilder ride, and much more turbulent at times. Is the MDMA therapy new, or has it been around for a while?
I think you are right that divine inspiration or dream may have guided them to this medicine. Another possibility is tribes tested unkown plants on their prisoners of war or slaves.
Not historically, but like you are saying, word on the street is some of these tribes are now doing the ceremony here in the US and you can pay to participate. Not sure how true that rumor is, but makes sense to me.
Appreciate you letting me know. Not in my budget right now, but hopefully in the future.
@_Nighthawk999 No it’s been around since the late 70’s. Chemist Alexander “Sasha” Shulgin re-discovered a molecule that had been patented in the early 1900’s by a pharmaceutical company. It’s in the amphetamine family, so they thought it might work as a weight loss drug. They tested it on mice but never tested it on people, and never brought it to market. Sasha had a penchant for testing possible psychedelic molecules on himself and if it seemed good, then would have his wife (a Jungian therapist) try it, and then test it on a group of their friends. It quickly became clear to them that this would make a great therapy drug as it has a very empathic heart chakra opening effect. It quickly spread through a network of underground psychedelic therapists, and it had not yet been scheduled as illegal. It was discovered that it was miraculous at healing trauma and PTSD. But then it spread into the recreational party scene and the early rave scene developed, etc, and the FDA scheduled it in Schedule 1 (dangerous drugs with no medical use) in 1986. The therapists who had been using it had to either stop or go underground. A guy named Rick Doblin believed in it’s therapeutic value and formed an organization (MAPS - the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies) to research the therapeutic value of MDMA and other psychedelics. They have been doing hard core peer reviewed science on this for decades and they have finally jumped through all of the phases of research to get it approved as a treatment for PTSD. They are thinking this may happen later this year. I’m keeping my fingers crossed. This will be an amazing medicine for many who suffer.
Very fascinating! Appreciate you telling me about this history. I think this therapy will; be a homerun once the FDA or government allows it for medical use.
I would not reccomend anyone try buying this drug off the street. Its my understanding these days many pills are now fentenal.
You and me both brother. I don’t think big Pharma wants people to end their suffering. They want people hooked on their products for life.
Multiple sources have told me that turning the Mushrooms into a tea, helps get rid of some of the nasty side effects. Also heard soaking them in lemon juice will do the same thing. Curious what you, and the experts you know have to say about this. And if it is true, any advice one how to craft this brew?