🆚️ Horizontal vs vertical enlightenment

[Michele1]

I heard Andrew speaking about horizontal vs vertical enlightenment. What is meant by that? I think it is hinting at something that I experienced myself when being part of a sangha with an ‘enlightened’ teacher - definitely feeling that he was in a ‘different state’ (experiencing non-stop bliss), but also sensing that something was odd, like a constant misuse of power. Now, Pema Chödrön speaks about it in the following clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7qFi52FX1Q&list=PL4D822228DCC71E89

and I just don’t understand where you draw the line. On one hand is seems necessary to be ‘offended’, ‘insulted’ and challenged to learn about our ‘shadow’ and be able to evolve and integrate that stuff, on the other hand… what…?!
I watched the recent mini-series about Andrew Cohen who seems to be a good example of what I am pointing at.
Can anybody elucidate on the horizontal-vertical enlightenment please?
I am sking because I am trying to get to a place of peace in regard to what I experienced.

[mbready]

I have to admit that your question is out of my range of knowledge. But i tried my best to add your questions and the situations surrounding the question to a compiled list and then I worked with AI to try to come up with something that may make sense.

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Your question about horizontal vs vertical enlightenment, is a profound one. Let me try to break it down in a simpler way.

Horizontal enlightenment can be thought of as our day-to-day spiritual growth. It’s about becoming more compassionate, understanding, and connected with the world and people around us. It’s a gradual process of expanding our awareness and understanding through our regular life experiences.

Vertical enlightenment, on the other hand, is about those deep, often sudden shifts in perspective and consciousness. It’s like having a moment of profound insight or realization that changes how you see everything. It’s less about everyday experiences and more about those rare, transformative moments that deeply affect our spiritual understanding.

Now, about your experiences with your teacher and the sense of oddness you felt, it’s important to remember that spiritual growth often involves being challenged and pushed out of our comfort zones. Teachers like Pema Chödrön discuss this - the idea that a teacher might provoke you to help you see and work on your limitations or ‘shadow’ self. It’s a way to grow, but it needs to be done with care and respect.

However, there’s a fine line here. It’s crucial to distinguish between being challenged for your growth and being in a situation where power is misused. Spiritual teaching should lead to positive growth, not feelings of constant distress or harm.

Regarding figures like Andrew Cohen, it’s a reminder that even spiritual leaders are human and can make mistakes. It’s essential to approach spiritual teachings with discernment and remember that no one person has all the answers.

Seeking a range of perspectives and perhaps guidance from various teachers could also offer more clarity and balance during our spiritual journeys.

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Doing this helped me understand the situation and the questions you were asking better. Hopefully it helps in some way.

[Michele1]

Yes, it does. Thank you so much.
Particularly the sentence “It’s crucial to distinguish between being challenged for your growth and being in a situation where power is misused. Spiritual teaching should lead to positive growth, not feelings of constant distress or harm” makes total sense to me.

[Michele1]

I am just examining this whole thing to get more clarity.
Another perspective is that whatever the teacher (including the behavious of a teacher unaware of his own ‘personality shadow aspects’) expresses and is received by you, is part of your karma, a reflection of past own transgressions coming back to be experienced. Hm. And through this process, awareness is gained. This does not justify though the misuse of power. It’s like speaking of two different levels: one is the human experience and the other karma.

[fenwizard]

So do you just hang around to be abused because that is your karma?
Or perhaps the teaching is to trust your own intuition to get the hell out of there and stop taking abuse! Sometimes folks with abuse issues end up in cults where they are repeating the same abuse pattern. Beware of any teacher who says that you have to follow everything they tell you to do because they are at a higher level of consciousness. Especially if what they are telling you to do feels abusive.

[_Barry]

@Michele1

I heard Andrew speaking about horizontal vs vertical

Not sure if you heard him discuss this in relation the Eastern vs. Western paths, where so many Eastern enlightened beings would come to the west and get in deep trouble, often through sexual or abusive behavior. The contribution of Western “vertical wisdom” found in psychological growth is where they were lacking in their spiritual growth. Not everyone, of course, but the cases are there to see. His discussion a few years ago with Dustin DePerna about waking up versus growing up may be what he was talking about, although @mbready has an excellent response too, so judge for yourself, eh?

[fenwizard]

I believe that the “waking up” vs. “growing up” also comes from the work of Ken Wilber whom I believe Andrew has had some connection with. I’ve studied some of Wilber’s stuff which is pretty heady writing. For Wilber, vertical development is related to “growing up”, which means becoming more psychologically mature as we grow from infancy to psychological maturity and wisdom. Cultures also go through growing up processes over time (vertical line of development). Waking up has to do with a horizontal expansion of consciousness from an individual ego to being able to identify with greater and greater wholes, ultimately being able to identify with everything and everyone as One (enlightenment). This video is a brief discussion of waking up vs. growing up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0XnO-c-iAA
But you can find longer and more extensive videos and articles on this. I also see that the interview with Dustin DePerna is on this same topic.

[_Barry]

@fenwizard

Ken Wilber

Wilbur’s integral studies, of which Andrew is a big fan.

[Bianca_Aga]

@Michele1
I truely empathise with your experience you have spoken about here that has left you trying to understand it.

I too within a Tibetan Buddhist arena went through the torture of the suffering from my first teacher, similar to the story Pema Chődrőn tells. It took me a decade to accept he wasn’t just ‘picking on me’ out of the whole group. Like the time at a 2 month summer camp i was at, I’d set my heart on being part of the dozen attendees when the teachers manager ask me to leave, saying all the other members were longer term students than me (untrue, was a 1st timer there). Whilst the group prepared to go for a day at the beach surfing I had to pack up all my camping gear & load up my car. I’d recently given up my house & contents & had no where to live as I’d relied on staying with the Sanga.
I phoned a friend & stayed a few days, then bought a ticket to India and stayed at a Buddhist Monastery quietly meditating & attending prayers for 2 months instead.

It’s good you feel you can share here, and hopefully get some closure. Blessings

[Michele1]

No, only in hindsight I can see it as karma. In the moment (and years) of experiencing it I made myself belief certain things that now I know were wrong (using certain justifications for my teacher’s behaviours, like ‘crazy wisdom’, etc.) I always felt it (the intuition that something was wrong) but did not have the maturity, courage and awareness to act on it.

[Michele1]

@_Barry

The contribution of Western “vertical wisdom” found in psychological growth is where they were lacking in their spiritual growth.

Yes, thank you, I am exploring this idea now and it definitely helps. A lot! Like everything falling into place. My nightmares make also sense, always pointing me in the one direction of embracing my intuition instead of running away from it and holding the teacher and the sangha on a ‘higher’ place instead.

[Michele1]

Yes, I get it now that all parts are important: “waking up, growing up, cleaning up and showing up” as pointed out by Dustin DePerna. My own lack of maturity was reflected by a lack of maturity in my teacher.

[Michele1]

@Bianca_Aga

It took me a decade to accept he wasn’t just ‘picking on me’ out of the whole group

Thank you, Bianca_Aga, for your reply. It touches my heart.
I feel I am finally - also after a decade of struggling with this whole thing - getting some closure. Nightmares have stopped and there is definitely more clarity. Gratitude. Acceptance. But, I will have to write to this teacher as I feel this is an essential step for me still.

[Bianca_Aga]

@Michele1

@Michele1

Thank you, Bianca_Aga, for your reply. It touches my heart.

@Michele1

I feel I am finally - also after a decade of struggling with this whole thing - getting some closure. Nightmares have stopped and there is definitely more clarity. Gratitude. Acceptance.

Amen
Even writing it down here in a safe environment helps.

@Michele1

But, I will have to write to this teacher as I feel this is an essential step for me still.

Good idea!

Here’s a video i think you’d enjoy (not so much abuse) about the Teacher/Student dynamics in Tibetan Buddhism teaching.
Interesting what Khyentse Rinpoche says about "his job is too … " .

Words Of My Perfect Teacher, the documentary, 2004

[NightHawk999]

Great topic

I dont know much about this topic and have been wanting to learn more, so appreciate you bringing it up

[NightHawk999]

" Four Domains

The four domains of development identify distinct types of learning. Waking up supports increasing awareness through the practice of mindful contemplation. Growing up expands agency through the acceptance of greater responsibility to enhance performance*.* Cleaning up integrates the many dimensions of our “self” through shadow work. Showing up refers to a commitment to co-create or serve something bigger than yourself in the world*.*

Created by Integral theorist, Ken Wilber, this framework explores learning not as a process of understanding content but as a context for reimagining the learning process. Each domain offers access to a different aspect of learning. Often, an opening in one domain provokes insights or actions in another. If we examine our lives from the perspective of these four domains of development, we will find unexpected growth.

WAKING UP

The process of waking up involves observing and questioning assumptions and worldviews. We calm our unsettled minds to create more space. We engage in mindful contemplation to experience the moment and deepen emotional, mental, physical, and social awareness.

Practice over time will lead to an open and direct view of reality. In each domain of development, we continue to wake up, observing what has become familiar in a fresh way. The focus of learning in this domain will find us becoming clear.

GROWING UP

Growing up involves taking ownership and agency of our lives by examining and curbing our compulsive habits and reflexive desires to cling and grasp.

In this domain, we form disciplines, structures, and practices to manage our choices as we allocate time, finances, and energy. We enhance performance and gain an intentional view of reality. Growing up will also lead us back to waking up as growth is always non-linear, and we continue to expand our awareness.

Our focus on becoming intentional in this domain will increase performance.


CLEANING UP

In the domain of cleaning up, we become a gentle warrior for freeing ourselves from concealed constraints and fixed patterns such as defense mechanisms and coping strategies and darker, self-destructive habits and areas of unworkability in our lives.

Cleaning up requires the courage to include and integrate our individual past and history (heritage/culture/nationality), which may involve examining our shadow self. The Jungian shadow is composed of the dark and unknown aspects of personality. It can be both positive and negative; most people focus on the shadow’s negative, repressed, or primal aspects. (See video by Jack Kornfield.)

Carl Jung saw the “first important work of a person’s life as the development of the ego— establishing how one is in the world.” Unless we are willing to spend time here, little growth is possible. What constrains us lies in our shadow.

The focus on cleaning up will find us becoming grounded to begin the process of integration.

A LEADER’S SHADOW. Jung was clear that until we examine and develop our ego, we cannot engage in spiritual development. Rushing past the ego reifies our spirituality as another “identity.” This is harmful to our growth (growing up) and showing up, as the ego’s desires will dominate if we are not aware of our shadow.

Likewise, a leader’s shadow will dominate organizational life. Whatever a leader conceals consciously or unconsciously will reveal itself when the leader is confronted by perceived threats, unpredictable change, or uncertainty.

SHOWING UP

As Woody Allen said, showing up is 80 percent of life. This is where others can observe leadership. The previous three domains focus on increasing awareness, developing competency, and surfacing concealed parts of ourselves in a way that can lead to integration as we show up in this domain.

S howing up reveals commitment in action. While each domain involves some action, here, we integrate all the previous domains to generate commitment and serve humanity in the world. Showing up involves our presence, what we attract, how we serve, and with whom we collaborate to co-create. This domain also includes and integrates discoveries to form our professional identity.

Engaging the world reveals gaps in previous domains as we begin to experience a cycle of learning and unlearning. With new space and structures, we continue to wake up, grow up, and clean up to show up more fully present, tuned-in, and available to serve.

The focus on integration and commitment in this domain will find us becoming whole.

An Integral Focus


Most development programs focus on competencies that improve showing up, using reductive performance measures. Without understanding the impact of waking up, growing up, and cleaning up, we can only improve showing up, marginally, based on our current understanding from past assumptions. We cannot create new openings.

Then again, venturing into growing up by identifying new skills or competencies also improves on what currently exists within the current view. Without a focus on waking up and cleaning up to unlearn concealed patterns and venture into new perceptions and possibilities, we will experience mild improvement.

To enhance performance both as competencies (content) and capacity (context) involves more than doing or producing more. It begins with being more: increasing awareness to examine and engage new views to express and execute new ideas.

Cultivating this level of development requires this “whole view” of learning and unlearning by recognizing tensions located in the previous three domains. With practice, we learn to unlearn and address disagreements directly, surface and reveal impediments, and encourage greater participation and commitment.

Showing up draws from the previous three domains to venture beyond measurable performance to include emotional, mental, volitional awareness, action, and commitment."

Integral Development Domains - Bhavana Learning Group.

[Bucket]

Thanks for posting this, this is a really helpful framework for the process of spiritual growth and self-development. I’ve been working with the first 3, totally ignoring the last one though. Good to be able to identify a place where I need to put more effort in.

[NightHawk999]

@Bucket

Thanks for posting this, this is a really helpful framework for the process of spiritual growth and self-development.

For sure. I would not have found it if @Michele1 did not start this thread. Had trouble finding videos searching the OP title, but then I remembered Andrew rephrase this as “waking up vs Growing up”.

@Bucket

I’ve been working with the first 3, totally ignoring the last one though. Good to be able to identify a place where I need to put more effort in.

I think its monumentally important to do the inner and personal work first, to the point where your vessel becomes nearly unsinkable, otherwise youre putting youself and others relying on you at risk, as well as the future aid you could give people. “A stitch in time saves 9”:

What Dreams May Come Lightning Boat Ride

[Michele1]

Also from my side: thank you for posting this. I believe though that life is a chaos and all these structures and efforts to organise life - at least mentally - fall short when faced with the reality of our mostly unconscious mind running the show.
Maybe I am saying this because I am still not clear what to make of my past.

Still grateful to have this opportunity here to read different viewpoints and at least try to make sense out of something which I clearly don’t understand (yet).

I like that part: "Jung was clear that until we examine and develop our ego, we cannot engage in spiritual development. Rushing past the ego reifies our spirituality as another “identity.” This is harmful to our growth (growing up) and showing up, as the ego’s desires will dominate if we are not aware of our shadow.
Very cool.

[NightHawk999]

@Michele1

Also from my side: thank you for posting this.

Anytime my friend

@Michele1

Maybe I am saying this because I am still not clear what to make of my past.

No easy answer for this. Andrew had something interesting to say about this indirectly, he said something like:

‘I have been to many therapists, and some of the first questions every one of them asked was “Tell me about your past?”’
Then he added:
‘I have been to many Monks, and NOT ONE has ever asked me to tell them about my past.’

I dont think he is downplaying the horrors and atrocities people experience in life, but I think there is a somewhat powerful teaching in his words.

@Michele1

Still grateful to have this opportunity here to read different viewpoints and at least try to make sense out of something which I clearly don’t understand (yet).

I am reminded of Schrödinger’s Cat:

Schrödinger's cat

I have no good answer to any of these tough questions, and when that happens I think its sometimes beneficial to dissect the questions (second derivative thinking):

An example:
“What is the meaning of life?”

Just like with Schrödinger’s cat, by posing a question within concepts, you have already imprisoned the answer in conceptual frameworks. Its a really fascinating paradox.

I am also reminded of one of my favorite poems:

"[O sweet spontaneous]
BY E. E. CUMMINGS
O sweet spontaneous
earth how often have
the
doting

         fingers of

prurient philosophers pinched
and
poked

thee
,has the naughty thumb
of science prodded
thy

    beauty      how

often have religions taken
thee upon their scraggy knees
squeezing and

buffeting thee that thou mightest conceive
gods
(but
true

to the incomparable
couch of death thy
rhythmic
lover

         thou answerest

them only with

                          spring)"

[O sweet spontaneous] by E. E. Cummings | Poetry Foundation

@Michele1

"Jung was clear that until we examine and develop our ego, we cannot engage in spiritual development. Rushing past the ego reifies our spirituality as another “identity.” This is harmful to our growth (growing up) and showing up, as the ego’s desires will dominate if we are not aware of our shadow.
Very cool.

I agree with this 100%. I think Vertical enlightenment requires transcending the ego, but Horizontal enlightenment requires a deep understanding of the ego, Both these insights I believe build on and compliment eachother, the deeper you dive.