Published by:
Omega Institute for Holistic Studies
Video Description:
Robert Thurman, PhD, makes the teachings of the Buddha interesting and meaningful to people all over the world. He is cofounder and president of Tibet House, US, a nonprofit organization dedicated to preserving and promoting the wisdom and the arts of Tibet.
Iâm not sure I totally get the point here. Is it anger without attachment? Is that possible by definition? Iâd appreciate any elaboration to help me to better understand âThe Wisdom of Anger.â
For me its the beginning where he says to talk about the wisdom of anger is to talk about anger as a peace-seeking, non-violent, forceful action to right-the-wrongs and create (more) harmony.
These days anger doesnât seem to be leading to âpeace-seeking, non-violent, forceful action to right-the-wrongs and create (more) harmony.â
I keep thinking of this saying from Shantideva, âgood works gathered in a thousand ages, such as deeds of generosity, or offerings to the blissful ones, a single flash of anger shatters them.â
It does always seem that way, for sure⌠but I donât think thatâs how it has to be. I keep thinking, if only we had a leader or leaders that can (help us) harness the anger and use it collectively for positive change - how much better off we could be.
I also think, in relation to the current times, perhaps the collective anger and outrage hasnât been very wise all the time - but it has accomplished some good (like some cities reforming their police force, for example).
And I also think about people who feel like the only way to change a broken system is to burn it down. Maybe they are right?
At around the 4:00 mark Thurman starts talking about anger in the context of Buddhism and he goes into how the different schools of Buddhism address anger. He even briefly mentions ShantidevaâŚ
Thurman says,
âMahayana would agree with the dualistic view of Buddhism that anger is no goodâ.
This sounds like the Shantideva quote you reference 
Thurman then goes on to say (roughly),
The Mahayana would also say the Bodhisattva, like the peacock who uses poison to be beautiful, the Bodhisattva can use the heat/fire of anger, take it away from the naive, mental approach where you become helpless (and lack all judgement), and use anger in a cool way, without hatred - take the anger away from the hatred, and cool-ly use force to improve a situation - in a loving way.
At around the 6:45 mark Thurman starts talking about Tantra and Vajrayana. He says,
In Vajrayana you go directly to the place where the heat of hatred and anger arises from. Its the place where you just donât want to see wrong things, you donât want harm and suffering to exist in the world. You will arise even in fury if necessary to stop it (if you are capable of that).
Thurman then says,
The problem with the un-enlightened person (practicing Vajrayana) or the person with no self-critical attitude is that they see something bad happening, they arise with fury, but then once gripped by the fury they add to the bad⌠They canât control themselves when theyâre playing with that fire/energy of pure anger, pure hatred.
Thurman rounds it out by saying,
But in Vajrayana, this pure energy can be used creativelyâŚ
Language may be part of the problem Andy. During the '60sâas riotous and contentious as these daysâwhen people expressed the desire to burn down the system I always asked, âWhat are you willing to sacrifice in this burning down?â Family, business, livelihood? Perhaps itâs the polarization of the issue that is leaving no room for the middle way? But I always believe in the Middle Way (The Razorâs Edge). Maybe thatâs why I am still an âunenlightened practitioner?â After listening again, I think it would be better to focus on the âThe Wisdom of Non-Anger.â
Good exchange.
@_Barry, RE:
âThe only person who could do it is a completely enlightened person.â 1:37
âThe Heat of anger can be creative.â 1:56
I still hold that men are capable of anger that women can never know (unless supplementing with lots of testosterone - the phrase " 'roid rage" holds true).
Iâve read a little on the Hell Realms and canât connect to the explanations. Theyâre based on anger. I suppose the âmamma bearâ anger might be closest? I have no experience of that eitherâŚ
Think: Wrathful Diety. Wrathful Compassion.
They are not âmadâ - that are so full of compassion their heart is constantly bursting forth. But they tried to Pacify a situation - and still it grew. They tried to Enrich the situation, but no such luck. Then they tried MagnetizingâŚstill no change. So now they have to take that last step - to Destroy.
(not destroy another person - perhaps destroy the magic ego-carpet they seem to be flying on, or destroy a relationship/alliance, or even destroy their own reputation if thatâs whatâs necessary!)
Heâs talking about using the experience of anger to wake up. To âsit in the stewâ while holding your seat for the 90-or-so seconds it takes for an emotion to self-liberate - if not given CPR. Sit with that burning pit of lava in your gut and just feel it. Itâs heat! âSeeing red?â
So I guess I do have some reference. Mine is usually felt as slowly sinking into the hot-tub of humiliation when I realize âomg, I am THAT!â So maybe not anger. Thatâs âburning the seeds of karmaâ I think.
Now jump to the 5 buddha families - sorry everyone to take the buddhist slant but thatâs how Iâve come to understand it. Itâs the vajrayana notion to use all experience as path. So you use anger to wake up. But you have to have a stable mind in order to stay on your cushion, so to speak. To not react in kind - as in meeting force with more force. Thatâs another definition of idiocy. Imagine you met your OWN force and didnât react? Thatâs the key I think.
Thatâs the Vajra Family - as Iâve learned it. During The Art of Dying, Bob said the White and the Blue switch, depending on the lineage (and that being consistant - and curiously ok with it not being right or wrong at the same time).
I donât have any proper teaching on this, just what Iâve come to understand from this fascination Iâve have with the elements/energies/wisdoms/chakras. So in my âbuddhaverseâ, Vajra family is Blue, the element is water, and the underlying energy that seems to be a surge of heat is what we shut down to and immediately label it âangerâ and maybe âbadâ or ârighteous angerâ - and then REact. (well, I do at least; Iâm light-years from where I was and backing up). The unenlightened aspect of this energy is acting out in anger. The enlightened aspect of this very same energy is wisdom. âMirror-like Wisdom.â
Water - an anger so icy cold and frozen that nothing could be felt - Iâve felt that actually. Towards myself. I started sitting by a âcreekâ that was overflowing during a really wet spring in an effort to break that icy self-hate. The river took out trees, the banks, my âsit spotâ, and was creating new routes in the land - Thatâs a lot of power. Rushing water - imagining being in a raging river, water forcing me over and over in some kind of confused blindness - that was the felt âvisionâ that hit home for me. Thatâs perhaps what blind rage feels like. (I usually shut down and fall asleep before ever getting to that point, hence seeking out rushing water).
Once that energy moves, you see everything a lot clearer and somehow know exactly what to do or say - Skillful Means. (hence choice is a myth to those enlightened, as I understand it) You do the right thing. Youâre a bodhisattva/buddha and know how to dispell the situation skillfully with minimal carnage. Maybe some bruised egos, but they will see the error of their ways and have an âawakeningâ of sorts themselves.
Itâs like you know how to respond like the Aikido Master Thurman mentions. (hi @Steve_Gleason !) They donât âsparâ in training like other martial arts, they practice with a partner at their same level. (I did manage to take a couple classes and it was fun and challenging and a total mind f* - I was hooked! but couldnât pursue it 
) The Aikido Master uses the opponentâs energy to dismantle the opponent. Complete and utter awareness of whatâs going on around him/her. They just know what the opponent is going to do because their minds are so trained in the present moment and all sense perceptions are awake, the opponent might as well be speaking on rpm33 (or whatever the fast record speed is). Every nerve is aware and sensing.
Thatâs whatâs possible if one can keep their seat when the energy we call âangerâ arises. That energy is merely information that something is (I hate to use the word âunjustâ - whereâs Andrew when I need his magical words!) - something needs to be destroyed. Not caught up in anger, not acting FROM anger, they transmute the energy of anger and SEE.
" Just as the clear surface of a mirror reflects everything before it, the wisdom of dharmadhatu âreflectsâ all the phenomena of samsara and nirvana. This clear reflection is the mirror-like wisdom."
https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Mirror-like_wisdom
Thereâs a lot of power behind that energy! Untrained, we go unconscious to it, non-lucid. And it consumes us. But if we can tame that energy and harness it, itâs like having jet-packs behind our intentions and vows (of which I havenât taken, only postulating here). And Right View is what guides our actions.
So I hear.
In theory.
Told you I was a hopeless romantic. :sigh:
Hereâs one take on the 5 wisdom energies:
https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Five_buddha_families
And the usual cheezy example of âwrathful compassionâ - when little Johnny wobbles towards an electrical outlet with a butter knife in his hand, aiming for that perfect fitâŚ
Pappa Bear - acting from a place of pure love and compassion - swats both the knife and little Johnny across the room away from imminent death. (ok, letâs say a lightning storm is going on outside too, at the time).
Now little Johnnyâs face is a red contorted mess, howling in shock and maybe fear, heâs not sure what just happened! And he has no concept of what âmight have beenâ - so that act of compassion looks like an act of WRATH! 
Anyway, in my avoidance of reality today I got sucked into a stoopid Amazon binge. I NEED ARTING STUFF NOW apparently. 
The funny part is that I ran across Thurmanâs book that he mentions! 
But - I ended up buying âInner Revolutionâ instead. I just adore how he spoofs on sci-fi to explain dharma - it lands in a super clever way for me! I want to be that clever!!! To speak 4+ âlanguagesâ at once and still make sense, WoW.
(or maybe heâs speaking in tongues - whatever that means)
Again - hopeless romantic⌠Beautiful Avatar forests here and now⌠dreamy sigh 
Iâll read the book. Thanks.
Oh I didnât mean it as a book recommendation! I havenât even read it!
And so now Barry is my guru.
It was more an acknowledging of synchronicity, but using my âout loud voiceâ.
What you just taught me:
For some reason I donât even get what Iâm getting at until I get some sort of feedback.
Astro tangent:
My Mercury (knowledge, information and the transfer of it) is in my 7th House (relationships and open enemies, also one source of astrological shadow propensities).
Also, my Sun (archetypal essense) is conjunct (same position as) Uranus (mad scientist, rebellion, independent). My sun is in Scorpio (death/transformation).
The AHA! :
I see have to âthink out loudâ, and with another person, to get what Iâm trying to grok. Donât have access to anyone face-to-face because Iâm a bit âout thereâ conventially. My âinside voiceâ Complaint Practice the past year+ has been around the inaccessibility to peopke who use the same âlingoâ Iâm learning to discuss deep-end of the pool stuff. They just arenât interested in âgoing thereâ and thatâs the only way I can.
(and why Iâm so windy and random here!)
Iâm not mathematical so I use the Sacred Symbols of the Ancients in maybe a similar fashion. Do you know it? Holy cow, just checked eBay at itâs selling for $200. Maybe I should sell my copy? Iâve used this book in an earlier printing since the '60s, though not for years now.
Thereâs also another (cheaper) book with a similar bent, Cards of Your Destiny, though I think he ripped off the earlier book and though it doesnât seem as insightful, it does have a lot more to it and itâs 10x cheaper.
