So it sounds like you have come to terms or acceptance of insomnia and have incorporated it into a process that you continue to explore through trial and error. I think if we incorporate it into our lives rather than be in surprised denial that it is there, we find that it actually contributes to expand on other facets of ourselves. I am sorry about the pain, I don’t have much knowledge about that kind of chronic pain. Did u say somewhere or did I imagine something about Vietnam?
For my part, I recently gave up my life-long addiction to coffee. That subdued a lot of the insomnia problem. And sometimes I think that maybe a lot of sleep isn’t all that necessary. If one can sleep thru most nights, maybe it’s not much of a concern. I recently read about the ancient division of sleep. First sleep, get up for a few hours, then second sleep. Maybe that is just another kind of normal that I have fallen subject to. But, still, it is important to be aware of all these nuances in sleep and dream patterns and meditation and how they all intersect with each other.
Definitely cutting down on coffee helped me. One cup before noon and that’s it!
This was the norm according to many sources and one of Andrew’s recurring themes involves light and how the proliferation of unnatural light has conversely led to so much physical and emotional disturbance during the night. Matthew Walker (Why We Sleep) recounts that historically, people would have two separate sleeping periods during the night, which is not what we expect these days. I remember the siesta business hours when I was stationed in South and Central America, which often seemed to be both cultural and practical when the afternoon swoon set in. Hence, more coffee for me.
I recommend also reading https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07SSVT4VQ/ (" Why We Don’t Sleep: How the wellness industry unintentionally created an insomnia epidemic") as a counter-voice to the alarmism which started with “Why We Sleep,” (which I’ve also read, and totally freaked me out.). WWDS is short and inexpensive, a quick read, and worth gaining some perspective on the issue.
I will again recommend “End the Insomnia Struggle,” (EIS) following it for just a few weeks now, my early morning wakings are moving later and later, to the point where I have no long wakeful periods in the middle of the night. If I ever am wakeful for more than about 20 minutes or anxious or starting to get frustrated, I just get up and move to another room and quietly do relaxation/meditation in the dark.
You can’t “fight” insomnia and you can’t “force” sleep. Really, as EIS says, the only way to win, is not to fight at all. Changing my mindset from “fixing” my sleep to “promoting healthy sleep” has also made a big difference. I think, at least for me, it’s really important to build a strong association between being in bed and sleeping, and bed being the only place you sleep.
Now, I find myself starting to get drowsy about 2 hours before bedtime. At bedtime I can feel my sleep drive is stronger than it used to be. It’s also getting cooler outside, and that promotes sleep with a cooler bedroom. I’m a side sleeper, and I changed from having 2 arm pillows (one large) to one small one that I fold in half. I noticed that the large pile of arm pillows was acting like an additional blanket, resulting in me getting too warm at the 5 hour mark, promoting waking. This has also helped increase my sleep time and push forwards my final waking to later and later.
I also decided for the moment not to pursue any dream recall for any wakings other than my “final” one, which I determine by judging my level of drowsiness. Or, in the case of particularly interesting dreams, I’ll get up to review and recall them, but I won’t lie in bed for 20 minutes just reaching for dream recall. This may result in slightly worse recall, but if I can establish a foundation of better sleep, including the ability to fall back asleep in the middle of the night, I figure I can use that as the basis for a better dreaming practice in the future.
I’m really excited and relieved to have found CBTi. I heartily recommend everybody who struggles with sleep check out a book that discusses the details of implementing your own sleep therapy program, like EIS, and about how important it is to use cognitive tools to deal with night-time worrying, planning, ruminating, etc. I see light at the end of the tunnel, and it’s looking like daylight after a restorative night of sleep with no long waking periods!
What is CBTi?, I missed the reference
This would be an excellent topic for Dr. Ed, The Sleep Doctor to spend more time on. He’s mentioned it several times but unless I missed a talk on the specifics of it, I don’t think he’s had one. My understanding is it is a concerted retraining of our habitual patterns that has been researched and verified as the most successful way to treat insomnia, particularly without drugs.
Another good thread to bookmark.
I’m really seeing good improvement from my CBT-i therapy for my sleep onset insomnia! Today is a bit of a landmark, I slept about 8 hours (possibly a bit more, I have no sophisticated trackers), out of a total of 8.5 hours in bed. I heartily encourage anybody suffering from even occasional insomnia to get a good book about discussing CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) approaches for insomnia (again, I recommend “End the Insomnia Struggle”, it’s what helped me most).
Once my sleep stabilizes I’m looking forwards to getting back into the full swing of dreaming practice, keeping a careful eye out for sleep quality and quantity.
Can you summarize the CBT practices that helped you most from that book?
I will put it on my reading list, but I may not be able to crack ot open for a few months (the list is very long).
What’s on the list? . . . .
Consciousness Unboud, and the 2 other books by the same author.
Dont have the list handy but Andrew said in a vid that those books will keep you occupied for the next 5 years. 
A detailed summary would be long, there’s a lot of content. Very briefly:
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Cognitive shift from “fighting” and “fixing” insomnia to “promoting healthy sleep behavior” and acceptance as to what experiences any one night will bring. Means to break the vicious cycle of insomnia causing anxiety which causes more insomnia, and 'round and 'round.
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Strategies for diverting highly distracting thoughts (worrying, planning, ruminating, problem solving, etc.)
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Sleep restriction therapy
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Sleep stimulus control therapy
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Mindfulness, Sleep hygiene, and some more topics
All of it was helpful. Keeping the detailed sleep logs together with the stimulus control therapy (combined with a bit of sleep restriction therapy), and the mindset shift stuff were the main things that made the biggest difference. And just all the little things they write about. So much good info in there. I’ve looked at a few insomnia books and this one I rate #1 from what I’ve seen.
I have completed the active phase of the therapy, I sometimes have short sleep nights but mostly I sleep now SOOOOOO much better, longer, and am more rested, with almost no long middle of the night tossing and turning awake for hours, like before. I’ve restarted my active dream practice, am reading and putting in to practice the new edition of The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep, and last week had my first lucid dream in over two months (with the planned hiatus for the sleep therapy). So I’m a very happy camper right now. I credit that book as having a huge role on my turn around. The other major influence was the Andrew Huberman sleep toolkit videos, and some of the info on the Ask The Sleep Doctor here.
Not wanting to kick a gift horse in the mouth, I took your advice and borrowed “End the Insomnia Struggle” from the library. I will try to read as much as I can over the next 3 weeks, and let you know how it goes.
I appreciate the follow up and the recommendation and summary. Thank you 
The middle of the night tossing and turing has been a problem for me. I used to average at least 1-2 days a month where I would get no sleep becuase of excitement or worry for the following day. Looking forward to the read.