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@_Barry. I’ve been pondering your question about which country doesn’t have so much collective karma to heal. Good question. And Nighthawk999’s response - that only enlightened beings like Buddha or Christ don’t have karma to deal with. But countries without a lot of bad karma, is that a thing?
Let’s look at it this way: Seems like we all have some bad karma, but some may have more than others. If you’ve spent lifetimes ripping others off and living primarily from a selfish ego then one would accumulate a lot of negative karma, as opposed to someone who lived from a sense of caring and compassion for others. We might also observe that some family lines have a lot more negative karma than others. For instance a mafia family vs a family that operated more from a sense of love and compassion for others. I’m sure most of us know families with many generations of various kinds of abuse, addictions (as a way to self-medicate the trauma) and various bad behaviors that get passed down the line. Other families are more into loving, helping and serving. None are perfect, of course, we all have our shit to deal with, but some seem better than others. Now apply that at the collective level to whole nations and cultures. Do some nations and cultures have more of history of bad behavior and misuse of power? I would argue that some are worse than others. The Western European nations, for various reasons were some of the first nations to develop things like guns and large sailing ships that could travel large distances across oceans. With this kind of power comes the temptation to abuse this power. They were able to conquer and colonize many parts of the world. When Columbus arrived in the Caribbean Islands, he and his men were soon enslaving the Native people. But they were hard to subjugate so before long slaves were being brought in from Africa. Bad karma. Similar kinds of histories are found throughout many parts of the world where European colonialism went. And America has been a big part of this. And sure, we’ve done some good things as well, but also many, many horrible things in my opinion. Bruce Cockburn expresses it well in this song:

It’s a stolen land and it’s all we got
It’s a stolen land and we’ll never forget
It’s a stolen land and there’s no going back
It’s a stolen land and were not through yet.

So yeah, we have the karma of stolen land, we have the karma of slavery, we have the karma of stealing land from Mexico (Mexican-American War), we have the karma of taking other lands from the Spanish (the Spanish American War), not to mention Vietnam, the Iraq War (sold to us with a lie of “weapons of mass destruction”) and numerous other things. Not that we haven’t also done good things as Americans, we have. But like many countries, we also need to look at our bad karma and deal with that. And I come from a family where some of it’s branches go back to early Colonial times in America. For instance one branch of my family were large landholders in Maryland during the 1600’s. So they probably had slaves. I also have some Native ancestry. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is some African blood in there somewhere. But contrast American and Western Colonial karma with a country like Bhutan, a Nation with generations of practicing Dharma. Not that they are perfect, no one is. But I would argue that some countries do indeed have more bad karma to deal with than others.

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Someone should create a hat that says MAML
“Make America More Loving”
And then we should vote in a MAML for President. :slight_smile: :slightly_smiling_face:

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Interesting topic after reading your post. Honestly didn’t think that much of this topic until your reply. Thought it was worth looking into. Off the top of my head I thought Norway because it is often considered one of the best places to live in the world but I overlooked the karmic stain of the vikings.


Creating a definitive list of nations with the “least collective negative karma” based on historical records is highly challenging and subjective due to the complex nature of karma as a concept and the diverse interpretations of historical events. Moreover, assessing the overall karma of nations involves moral and ethical judgments that vary across cultures and belief systems. However, I can highlight a few nations that are often perceived as having a history of peacefulness, neutrality, or positive contributions to the global community, keeping in mind the limitations and subjective nature of such assessments:

  1. Iceland - Known for its low crime rate, absence of a standing army, and a history of peaceful settlement since its Viking-age inhabitants.

  2. Costa Rica - Notable for abolishing its military in 1948 and focusing on education, healthcare, and environmental protection.

  3. Bhutan - Recognized for its commitment to Gross National Happiness over Gross Domestic Product, emphasizing the well-being of its citizens and environmental conservation.

  4. Switzerland - Famous for its long-standing policy of neutrality, not having engaged in a foreign war since 1815, and hosting numerous peace negotiations.

  5. New Zealand - Often cited for its peacefulness, progressive social policies, and efforts in nuclear disarmament and environmental protection.

  6. Sweden - Known for its neutrality, especially during the 20th century, and its contributions to international peace efforts, including the Nobel Peace Prize.

  7. Finland - Recognized for its stability, peacefulness, and efforts in international diplomacy and conflict resolution.

  8. Japan (Post-WWII) - Since World War II, Japan has embraced pacifism, contributing to international peacekeeping efforts and advocating for nuclear disarmament.

  9. Norway - Despite its Viking history, Norway is known for its peace negotiations efforts, Nobel Peace Prize, and contributions to global peacekeeping.

  10. Denmark - Often highlighted for its peaceful society, social welfare policies, and emphasis on sustainability and renewable energy.

This list is not exhaustive and is based on general perceptions of nations’ contributions to peace, welfare, environmental protection, and global cooperation. It does not account for all historical nuances or every period in each nation’s history. The concept of karma being applied to nations is an abstract interpretation and not a universally accepted methodology for assessing historical actions and their consequences.

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I like your list! And yeah, the Scandinavians seemed to have gotten the whole burn and pillage thing out of their system early on with the Vikings and now lead the way with mostly peaceful governments that provide a lot of benefits to their citizens.

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Also, if Tibet was still independent of China, I think it would be at the top of the list.

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We also might look at in another way, as Shanti Deva observed, We are all slaves of our own actions. Why be angry with anyone else? Can anyone quantify his or her own Karma, let alone another’s, much less a city’s or country’s karma? Milarepa, the Tibetan Yogi, knew he did many bad things. Many murders later he repented and spent the rest of his life making up for it, and indeed as legend goes he was successful. His advice was to abandon countries, families, grasping and study Dharma. He focused on himself and that is what ultimately saved him.

Can anyone quantify his or her own Karma, let alone another’s, much less a city’s or country’s karma? When would you even start to examine that? Ten years ago, twenty, five hundred? More? If, in a Buddhist perspective, we have lived countless lifetimes, then we likely have been on both the receiving and giving end of countless sufferings during our existences, wherever and whenever they may have been.

I think getting into the my karma is worse than your karma (my country is worse than your country) discussion can easily lead to grasping, resentment and ignorance or spiritual materialism and spiritual bypassing, as well. It is a rabbit hole that leads to more anger, resentment, materialism and fear. Just my experience, so others may disagree.

Is Karma collective or individual? Is a nation of 350 million doing both good and bad things gathering more good karma that a tiny nation of under a million? How do you know? How about the country and people before The Dharma, perhaps the evils there were truly unimaginable? How far back do we go? Maybe I was Bhutanese is my last lifetime and you came from Pakistan? Not that there’s anything wrong with that!

Having a historical perspective is useful, so if you start back a few decades or centuries I’d bet there would be a different list. New Zealand’s Maori population might have a word or two on the matter, as well as Koreans living in post WW2 Japan, or the pre WW2 Chinese in Nanking. Evaluating a country’s comparative contributions and mistakes is a lesser game than celebrating positive contributions of any and all. We understand there have been, and are problems, but for my part, I like the idea I attribute to something I read in a Talbot Mundy book, If you want to change the world, change yourself first and you will be too busy to bother your neighbor. Then, there’s the Bodhisattva Vow . . . .

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@_Barry. You make some very good points Barry. Perhaps karma is only personal and not collective? But if we define karma as a chain of causality, then it would stand to reason that groups of people also initiate chains of causality, for good or ill. But yes, every country in the world has done some bad stuff, especially if you go back far enough. I think it can be useful for we as Americans to look at our stuff collectively to see where we’ve made mistakes as well as how we can do better. And I also want to acknowledge that we’ve come a long ways. It’s also useful to consider an evolutionary view (such as Ken Wilber) in addition to traditional dharma teachings. America has gone from a time when there was slavery and only land-owning white males could vote, to an era that (on paper at least) all races and genders and orientations have equal rights. May spiritual evolution continue for All Beings and All Nations under God/dess with Liberty and Justice and Deep Compassion for All Beings. May it be so.

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@_Barry. You make some very good points Barry. Perhaps karma is only personal and not collective? But if we define karma as a chain of causality, then it would stand to reason that groups of people also initiate chains of causality, for good or ill. But yes, every country in the world has done some bad stuff, especially if you go back far enough.

I think it can be useful for we as Americans to look at our stuff collectively to see where we’ve made mistakes as well as how we can do better. And I also want to acknowledge that we’ve come a long ways. It’s also useful to consider an evolutionary view (such as Ken Wilber) in addition to traditional dharma teachings. America has gone from a time when there was slavery and only land-owning white males could vote, to an era that (on paper at least) all races and genders and orientations have equal rights. May spiritual evolution continue for All Beings and All Nations under God/dess with Liberty and Justice and Deep Compassion for All Beings. May it be so.

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@_Barry. You make some very good points Barry. Perhaps karma is only personal and not collective? But if we define karma as a chain of causality, then it would stand to reason that groups of people also initiate chains of causality, for good or ill. But yes, every country in the world has done some bad stuff, especially if you go back far enough.

I think it can be useful for we as Americans to look at our stuff collectively to see where we’ve made mistakes as well as how we can do better. And I also want to acknowledge that we’ve come a long ways. It’s also useful to consider an evolutionary view (such as Ken Wilber) in addition to traditional dharma teachings. America has gone from a time when there was slavery and only land-owning white males could vote, to an era that (on paper at least) all races and genders and orientations have equal rights. May spiritual evolution continue for All Beings and All Nations under God/dess with Liberty and Justice and Deep Compassion for All Beings. America the Ever More Beautiful.

May it be so.

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We have choices every day and every night, individually and collectively, and as Emile Coue advised, every day in evey way we are getting better and better. We just have to go in, and out to do it.

I found it instructive that when a group of our Alaskan Eskimo college students returned from a trip to England, they expressed that for the first time they felt like Americans and were proud. Usually, their identification was with their village, then as Yupik (tie for first), then Alaskan, and a distant fourth, Amerwhatever.

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@_Barry. You make some good points Barry. Personal spiritual development is key . . . and as someone who is influenced by Ken Wilber’s Integral Theory, the vertical dimension of personal spiritual development must also be in addition to the horizontal line of care for the world. Think Gandhi, Martin Luther King and the whole yogic idea of karma yoga - whether that means volunteering at the food bank or social activism.
I also have to say that America, like all countries and cultures on this planet is evolving and has come a long way since the days of Native genocide and slavery and when women couldn’t vote. And we are continuing to evolve as a nation and a planet. A lot of good karma yoga is helping to turn this ship around. There are many things about America that I love. I will leave us with this:

May it be so!

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Music by Beautiful Chorus:

“Be like water, my friend” - Taoist wisdom from Bruce Lee.

Hymn of Healing

Welcome to the Love Dimension

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Shame he doesn’t wear a mask made of mirrors :blush:.

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One of my favorite drummers next to Cobus.

:blush: Drumeo got him to play Nickelback. :smile:.

Cool story, my wife’s sister’s high school friend happens to be his daughter. One evening, while dining at Red Robin, my wife’s sister recognized Mike dining just beside us. I seized the opportunity to approach him, and he graciously gave me his autograph. Awesome guy!

The music video for ‘Nightmare’ by Avenged Sevenfold holds a deeply personal resonance for me, particularly due to an experience where I found myself restrained in a manner reminiscent of the video’s introduction, despite showing no signs of violence or aggression. My assertions that the world was an illusion were met with extreme measures. The true satisfaction emerged not merely from enduring the ordeal but from the profound realization that the world, as it was presented to me, was indeed an illusion. This epiphany allowed me to defy the concrete beliefs of those who sought to confine me, every extreme measure taken was met with even more extreme synchronicities transforming my perception of the world into something that closely mirrored the essence of ‘Nightmare.’ The process of enduring the introduction, then, became an act of defiance against what my captors considered solid or reified reality. In this struggle and through the song’s exploration of reality’s edges and personal battles against misunderstanding and confinement, I found a unique form of enjoyment. It was in the embrace of suffering deemed necessary by my imprisoners that I discovered empowerment, aligning my experience with the thematic core of ‘Nightmare’ and reshaping my reality in the process.

“Born from the depths of despair following the tragic loss of their drummer, The Rev, to suicide, ‘Nightmare’ delves into the psyche of bereavement and the quest for meaning amidst mortality. Its lyrics navigate haunting visions of sinners’ reckonings and tormented souls, challenging listeners to confront their fears and demons. Into this chasm of sorrow stepped Mike Portnoy, a legendary figure in his own right, who filled the void left by The Rev with a performance that both honored his predecessor and contributed to the song’s depth. Without relying on chart positions or accolades, ‘Nightmare’ stands as a testament to Avenged Sevenfold’s journey through sorrow, providing solace to those wandering in the shadows of their nightmares. To dispute its emotional depth and cathartic power is to overlook the essence of Avenged Sevenfold’s artistry and the soul-stirring capacity of music to heal and haunt.”

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@_BlessingsDeers. Lokah Samastah Sukinho Bhavantu
“May All Beings Be Happy and Free.”
I just posted another version of this mantra on the mantra page.

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i-guess-this-is-where-we-part-ways

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